Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Freeky]

Sex is your junk, so I'm not understanding this.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the use of "assigned" in Signora's post because it isn't a situation of schroedinger's genitals, it's pretty much determined what sex you are fairly early on


Regarding "assigned at birth" gender, this is retarded. Oh noez, the delivering doctor has identified the baby's sex and went with the obvious! LIFE ROONT!

More seriously, her argument sounded like she blames the doctors for shit that is the fault of their family or caretakers and immediate social environment. It isn't the job of a doctor to worry if this baby will be cis or genderfluid or transfer. His job is to get the baby from womb to world.

I agree that forcing a kid into a perceived gender when they have the faculty to start choosing that for themselves is dead wrong, but what are we supposed to do for the first couple years, call it "it?"

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree that forcing a kid into a perceived gender when they have the faculty to start choosing that for themselves is dead wrong, but what are we supposed to do for the first couple years, call it "it?"

My default is that you treat the kid as the gender that they are born with, until they tell you otherwise.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.

I just don't see how labels stop rape and discrimination.

[Juana]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

You can't avoid it. If I came across as saying that then chalk it down to the piss poor at explaining thing. The way I see it is that I can't beat them but there's no fucking way I'm going to join them. It's kinda how I feel about voting - you don't change a retarded fucking system by pushing button A or button B like you're supposed to. Same with labels - I don't feel I can change discrimination against group-x by joining the group-x appreciation society. That's just reinforcing the idea that group-x are different from the rest of society, which is what the problem stems from in the first place. So instead I treat everyone the same. Isn't that the idea behind equality? To treat everyone the same? So I do that, not because I think the world will magically change but because I think it's the right thing to do.

Meanwhile I'm being told that I'm wrong and the right way to make sure everyone gets treated the same is to form a little enclave and bitch and whine about how everything is wrong. Well I can't buy into that mentality. I go with what feels right, not with what is popular. Popular is how we got in this mess to begin with.

We've gotten wrapped up in what feminism means for (Western) women and females. Which is important, but not the whole point of third-wave feminism, which is serious about intersectionality and what oppressive systems mean for all of us ("white womanhood" was used to oppress Black people and affected Black men in particular. World wide colonization by white people created shadeism, which continues to affect people today, etc.).

Sex is your junk, so I'm not understanding this.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the use of "assigned" in Signora's post because it isn't a situation of schroedinger's genitals, it's pretty much determined what sex you are fairly early on


Regarding "assigned at birth" gender, this is retarded. Oh noez, the delivering doctor has identified the baby's sex and went with the obvious! LIFE ROONT!

More seriously, her argument sounded like she blames the doctors for shit that is the fault of their family or caretakers and immediate social environment. It isn't the job of a doctor to worry if this baby will be cis or genderfluid or transfer. His job is to get the baby from womb to world.

I agree that forcing a kid into a perceived gender when they have the faculty to start choosing that for themselves is dead wrong, but what are we supposed to do for the first couple years, call it "it?"

What other term would you suggest to use? Because the concept isn't retarded; not every person who appears female at birth actually is, because sex is just as much a spectrum as any other facet of human existence.

It's not her argument, precisely. That's the general term for "baby A looks like they are female but short of a phenotypic test, we don't know for sure that this child is female in the truest sense" or "this child has a condition that is best remedied by doing x, which makes them appear female, whether they are or not." What would you suggest calling instead?

[Juana]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.

I just don't see how labels stop rape and discrimination.

Which is understandable. It's something I used to think, too. I''ll try to explain why.

[P3nT4gR4m]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.

I just don't see how labels stop rape and discrimination.

But it's not just labels, when you factor in telling people who support you that they don't understand it becomes a surefire recipe for success.

[Juana]

Are you done yet? That horse is a pulp now.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Dunno, are you going to say "CIS" any more?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.

I just don't see how labels stop rape and discrimination.

Which is understandable. It's something I used to think, too. I''ll try to explain why.

The concept is totally alien to me, so you'll get a fair hearing...I have no preconceived notions on this that I know of.

[Freeky]

I agree that forcing a kid into a perceived gender when they have the faculty to start choosing that for themselves is dead wrong, but what are we supposed to do for the first couple years, call it "it?

My default is that you treat the kid as the gender that they are born with, until they tell you otherwise.u

I've been going with offer any clothes and toys and books and movies/TV.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Um, P3nt, Garbo?  We're all friends here.  If we can't discuss this sort of thing without getting pissed, we may as well jump back into the sty with the other piggies.

Just saying.

I am also very uncomfortable with the label, but how can we discuss it if we can't say it?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Um, P3nt, Garbo?  We're all friends here.  If we can't discuss this sort of thing without getting pissed, we may as well jump back into the sty with the other piggies.

Just saying.

I am also very uncomfortable with the label, but how can we discuss it if we can't say it?

Sorry Rog. Sorry Garbo. I'm dubious as a motherfucker but I'll try to keep an open mind.

[Juana]

Which is understandable and fine.

[Freeky]

@Garbo reply #828:

Can intersex be a lifethreatening thing? I was under the impression it wasn't, which makes me feel like those doctors are overstepping their boundaries, their job only being to get the baby out. They have no business doing any of that, and I reject this notion as a valid counterargument of what is a Dr's job (unless the answer to my first question is yes). I feel like that is someone trying to enforce their views, which is a separate and valid argument but it isn't what I'm talking about, and I already addressed this point.  It really makes me see red when I know people don't read what I say.

I'd call the baby as whatever sex it is until notified otherwise.

I know that people are fucking stupid, and would rather just stuff them in a box and leave it at that, but they're very, very wrong. I agree that in a dialogue about sex/gender it's a necessary term. In fact, my only problem here is that blame is being put in the wrong place.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

"I am just trying to be a better person."

I actually read this as genuine at first. My bad.
And then Roger was a successful troll.

Then Roger didn't take you seriously when you went off the fucking deep end.

Or words to that effect.

Well, I'm off to bed, to dream up more ways to keep a brother down.  Paes, be prepared to be consumed with Holy Wrath^TM at my outrageous acts of oppression on this very board, come tomorrow.  That way, you won't even notice when the people who are actually oppressing you come down on you like a ten ton sack of pigshit.

Way to go.

In fairness, no one's oppressing Paes. He's a straight white cis guy, bless him.

People say things like this when they buy into the idea of patriarchy, rather than kyriarchy.

It probably helps if you've turned a blind eye to systemic banking corruption throughout the globe, the increasingly punitive prison culture right in your own back yard, and living in a country that has some of the worst inequality in the world.

Those all are things that white cis guys are immune from, see.

The part where I said that my feminism is intersectional? Kind of assumes I "buy into" kyriarchy, but I'm sorry if I didn't specify that while hashing out replies on my phone

I'd also point out that the people who benefit the most from systemic banking corruption, our fucked-up prison culture (over half the prison population is Māori despite making up less than 15% of the total population), and income inequality (at the last census the mean income of Māori was 73.2% of that of non-Māori; women earn 2/5 of gross earnings) are upper-class white cis guys. Or perhaps it would be fairer to say that the system which currently allows this to happen was set up and is primarily run/controlled by white cis guys.

Which is not to say that Paes, personally, is not affected by living in a fucked-up system. Of course he is. We all are, because (whoo title reference) patriarchy/kyriarchy hurts men too.

And finally, I was being fairly tongue-in-cheek with my "Paes is a straight white cis guy" comment in the first place, but I realise that shit never translates well over the interbutts so that's my bad.

I don't know if you're doing the tongue in cheek thing again, but you argued the same thing as Net right there.

Ah, maybe. I read Net's comment as sarcasm; that those things systemically oppress cis white guys. I don't agree. There's a high chance I misinterpreted the post, though.

Admittedly, I was a bit pissed off when I wrote my reply, because people implying that I don't know what's going on in my own country is a bit of a hot button, but that's more to do with my shitty misogynistic family patting me on the head whenever I express a vaguely political opinion and it wasn't really Net's fault that it fucked me off so much. So, yeah, apologies if I missed something blindingly obvious there.

Maybe I'm going to look like a huge asshole according to Paesior, but yes, most straight white cis guys get oppressed by a nationless, plutocratic ultrawealthy elite. Do we have it better than everybody else? Of course we do. But merely being a SWC guy doesn't make us free from economic oppression either. We might get paid more than women for the same job, but it's not likely to be a living wage.

The point is that there's a class war being waged on millions of SWC guys along with everyone else in the lower economic strata, and equating SWC males with freedom from systematic economic oppression is going to be a hard sell. Being a SWC guy does not make one immune from poverty, prison profiteers, and the fallout from systemic banking fraud, sorry.