Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.

I just don't see how labels stop rape and discrimination.

But it's not just labels, when you factor in telling people who support you that they don't understand it becomes a surefire recipe for success.

Horse may be pulp, but he just nailed the bulk of this thread in one sentence.

As for labels, yeah, I see them. I can't NOT see if a person is black/white/asian/in drag/whatever. I also see things like red t shirts. None of it really makes a fuck in the total scheme of things. And I'm satisfied with "red t shirt", I see no reason to subdivide it into a bazillion shades of red t shirts with various degrees of fading, fiber content and wear for general usage. 

[Juana]

I'll get into that.


That's class, Net. Class oppression hits 99.999999% of the planet's population. SWC Western dude, straight Chinese cis chick, gay African trans*x person. All the same. Unless you're a super wealthy, you get hit, too.

@Garbo reply #828:

Can intersex be a lifethreatening thing? I was under the impression it wasn't, which makes me feel like those doctors are overstepping their boundaries, their job only being to get the baby out. They have no business doing any of that, and I reject this notion as a valid counterargument of what is a Dr's job (unless the answer to my first question is yes). I feel like that is someone trying to enforce their views, which is a separate and valid argument but it isn't what I'm talking about, and I already addressed this point.  It really makes me see red when I know people don't read what I say.

I'd call the baby as whatever sex it is until notified otherwise.

I know that people are fucking stupid, and would rather just stuff them in a box and leave it at that, but they're very, very wrong. I agree that in a dialogue about sex/gender it's a necessary term. In fact, my only problem here is that blame is being put in the wrong place.

It can be (although I wanna note that a lot of intersexuality is not immediately obvious until the kid hits puberty, especially if some cells are reading XX and others are reading XY, or it's an androgen insensitivity problem). There's a condition I can't remember the name of, but the baby is born with literally no sexual or excertory organs. It's a giant gaping hole. I don't remember what they do about the urethra, but they take a section of small intestine and use it as a vagina, and then make the kid an anus.


A lot of the time, I agree that the doctors are overstepping their bounds. Medical ethics right now doesn't even require that a doctor consult the parents about what to do with the baby. Which is ridiculous and wrong and I would sue the shit out of a hospital that gave my kid radical surgery without even fucking ASKING me what I wanted to do about it.

But, OTOH, (for both the parents and the doctor) what do you do about an intersexed baby? There's some social responsibility there.

ALSO, the book I read about intersexuality is in that bunch of books I gave you. It's called Between XX and XY.


edited real quick for clarity.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't see CIS catching on. It got a backlash at peedee, FFS, and everybody's usually all for anything to do with diversity. It's just squicky as fuck. Label. 

[Juana]

I don't see CIS catching on. It got a backlash at peedee, FFS, and everybody's usually all for anything to do with diversity. It's just squicky as fuck. Label. 

That had more to do with me. I've used it in ways that can't be interpreted as derogatory elsewhere on this board before. All it got then was "labels are bad and I don't need labels". *shrug*

[Freeky]

I don't see CIS catching on. It got a backlash at peedee, FFS, and everybody's usually all for anything to do with diversity. It's just squicky as fuck. Label. 

I don't see what is squick about it. It's a descriptive term that replaces "normal." Now there's a thing for it, rather than everyone who isn't normal is abnormal (with PC descriptive terms).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Maybe I'm going to look like a huge asshole according to Paesior,

I am now operating under the ground rule that if someone wants to advance an argument, they should, despite what anyone may decide is an "unacceptable opinion".  If you can't talk about it without accusing the other side of being some horrible monster and/or bigot, then you probably don't have a very good argument yourself.

Fanaticism is just another way to not think.

but yes, most straight white cis guys get oppressed by a nationless, plutocratic ultrawealthy elite. Do we have it better than everybody else? Of course we do. But merely being a SWC guy doesn't make us free from economic oppression either. We might get paid more than women for the same job, but it's not likely to be a living wage.

Yep.  Men have it bad.  Women have it worse.  Worse is "worse" than bad, but bad is still bad.

The point is that there's a class war being waged on millions of SWC guys along with everyone else in the lower economic strata, and equating SWC males with freedom from systematic economic oppression is going to be a hard sell. Being a SWC guy does not make one immune from poverty, prison profiteers, and the fallout from systemic banking fraud, sorry.

See above. 

To acknowledge that men face issues as well does not in anyway lessen the issues that women face.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

All it got then was "labels are bad and I don't need labels". *shrug*

That is my current opinion, but I am withholding my argument pending your thread on the subject.

[Juana]

Which is up, btw.

[Freeky]

@Garbo reply #828:

Can intersex be a lifethreatening thing? I was under the impression it wasn't, which makes me feel like those doctors are overstepping their boundaries, their job only being to get the baby out. They have no business doing any of that, and I reject this notion as a valid counterargument of what is a Dr's job (unless the answer to my first question is yes). I feel like that is someone trying to enforce their views, which is a separate and valid argument but it isn't what I'm talking about, and I already addressed this point.  It really makes me see red when I know people don't read what I say.

I'd call the baby as whatever sex it is until notified otherwise.

I know that people are fucking stupid, and would rather just stuff them in a box and leave it at that, but they're very, very wrong. I agree that in a dialogue about sex/gender it's a necessary term. In fact, my only problem here is that blame is being put in the wrong place.

It can be (although I wanna note that a lot of intersexuality is not immediately obvious until the kid hits puberty, especially if some cells are reading XX and others are reading XY, or it's an androgen insensitivity problem). There's a condition I can't remember the name of, but the baby is born with literally no sexual or excertory organs. It's a giant gaping hole. I don't remember what they do about the urethra, but they take a section of small intestine and use it as a vagina, and then make the kid an anus.


A lot of the time, I agree that the doctors are overstepping their bounds. Medical ethics right now doesn't even require that a doctor consult the parents about what to do with the baby. Which is ridiculous and wrong and I would sue the shit out of a hospital that gave my kid radical surgery without even fucking ASKING me what I wanted to do about it.

But, OTOH, (for both the parents and the doctor) what do you do about an intersexed baby? There's some social responsibility there.

ALSO, the book I read about intersexuality is in that bunch of books I gave you. It's called Between XX and XY.

edited real quick for clarity.

I did not know about that medical thing. Sounds awful. I have no idea what should happen there.

As for intersex babby, I would personally alternate between he and she for pronouns, and if it were mine I would get both boy and girl clothes, toys, whatever. I do that now, and monkey is probably a boy through and through.

[Juana]

So you'd say no to surgery? That doesn't always work out well, in terms of the kid being happy as an adult.

[Freeky]

So you'd say no to surgery? That doesn't always work out well, in terms of the kid being happy as an adult.

No? I only just heard of it, it sounds pretty serious, so obviously something would have to be done just to fix the problem. Also being sexless would make for a miserable childhood because everyone would exclude you.

[Signora Pæsior]

"I am just trying to be a better person."

I actually read this as genuine at first. My bad.
And then Roger was a successful troll.

Then Roger didn't take you seriously when you went off the fucking deep end.

Or words to that effect.

Well, I'm off to bed, to dream up more ways to keep a brother down.  Paes, be prepared to be consumed with Holy Wrath^TM at my outrageous acts of oppression on this very board, come tomorrow.  That way, you won't even notice when the people who are actually oppressing you come down on you like a ten ton sack of pigshit.

Way to go.

In fairness, no one's oppressing Paes. He's a straight white cis guy, bless him.

People say things like this when they buy into the idea of patriarchy, rather than kyriarchy.

It probably helps if you've turned a blind eye to systemic banking corruption throughout the globe, the increasingly punitive prison culture right in your own back yard, and living in a country that has some of the worst inequality in the world.

Those all are things that white cis guys are immune from, see.

The part where I said that my feminism is intersectional? Kind of assumes I "buy into" kyriarchy, but I'm sorry if I didn't specify that while hashing out replies on my phone

I'd also point out that the people who benefit the most from systemic banking corruption, our fucked-up prison culture (over half the prison population is Māori despite making up less than 15% of the total population), and income inequality (at the last census the mean income of Māori was 73.2% of that of non-Māori; women earn 2/5 of gross earnings) are upper-class white cis guys. Or perhaps it would be fairer to say that the system which currently allows this to happen was set up and is primarily run/controlled by white cis guys.

Which is not to say that Paes, personally, is not affected by living in a fucked-up system. Of course he is. We all are, because (whoo title reference) patriarchy/kyriarchy hurts men too.

And finally, I was being fairly tongue-in-cheek with my "Paes is a straight white cis guy" comment in the first place, but I realise that shit never translates well over the interbutts so that's my bad.

I don't know if you're doing the tongue in cheek thing again, but you argued the same thing as Net right there.

Ah, maybe. I read Net's comment as sarcasm; that those things systemically oppress cis white guys. I don't agree. There's a high chance I misinterpreted the post, though.

Admittedly, I was a bit pissed off when I wrote my reply, because people implying that I don't know what's going on in my own country is a bit of a hot button, but that's more to do with my shitty misogynistic family patting me on the head whenever I express a vaguely political opinion and it wasn't really Net's fault that it fucked me off so much. So, yeah, apologies if I missed something blindingly obvious there.

Maybe I'm going to look like a huge asshole according to Paesior, but yes, most straight white cis guys get oppressed by a nationless, plutocratic ultrawealthy elite. Do we have it better than everybody else? Of course we do. But merely being a SWC guy doesn't make us free from economic oppression either. We might get paid more than women for the same job, but it's not likely to be a living wage.

The point is that there's a class war being waged on millions of SWC guys along with everyone else in the lower economic strata, and equating SWC males with freedom from systematic economic oppression is going to be a hard sell. Being a SWC guy does not make one immune from poverty, prison profiteers, and the fallout from systemic banking fraud, sorry.

It was actually Freeky who said that argument would make you look like a huge asshole, Paes was quoting her.

Thanks for clarifying your argument, btw, I appreciate it.

As Garbo said -- that's class oppression, which is a different thing again. It's just one more societal privilege in a giant fucking mess of them.

Look. Unless you are a rich, white, straight, able-bodied, thin, cis guy (I've probably missed some) then you will face some sort of systemic oppression somewhere. Even if you are all those things, you are still going to be negatively affected by them, it's just that you're not being actively oppressed by them. Which, again, doesn't mean that they don't harm you in some way.

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Maybe I'm going to look like a huge asshole according to Paesior,

I am now operating under the ground rule that if someone wants to advance an argument, they should, despite what anyone may decide is an "unacceptable opinion".  If you can't talk about it without accusing the other side of being some horrible monster and/or bigot, then you probably don't have a very good argument yourself.

Fanaticism is just another way to not think.

Agreed. Though I will point out that I wasn't putting words into his mouth:

Hopefully he doesn't come back and say he was describing things that affect striaght white cis males because then he would "look like a huge asshole".

To acknowledge that men face issues as well does not in anyway lessen the issues that women face.

Absolutely. I should have said that myself.

I'm grateful to have lucked into a spot near the top of the shitpile, and the fact that I'm still getting shat on from great heights was only brought up when Signora said straight white cis males aren't oppressed. She claimed it was tongue in cheek but then appeared to waffle about it, so I expanded on my point.

That's class, Net. Class oppression hits 99.999999% of the planet's population. SWC Western dude, straight Chinese cis chick, gay African trans*x person. All the same. Unless you're a super wealthy, you get hit, too.

Yep. That's all I was pointing out.

Patriarchy helps keep us divided as a class as well.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

I'm probably a bad person for finding this fascinating.