Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Faust]

You're a dick.

Mea culpa

[Freeky]

You're a dick.

SEXIST!

[Signora Pæsior]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

[Signora Pæsior]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

Yeah, sorry about that, I see where there was a clarity fail now.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

Yeah, sorry about that, I see where there was a clarity fail now.

This implies that *I* am responsible for YOUR problems, seeing as how I am the king-hell oppressor in the pecking order.

Sorry about all those things, I was just being what I am.

I now have an excuse, just like you do.

[Signora Pæsior]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

Yeah, sorry about that, I see where there was a clarity fail now.

This implies that *I* am responsible for YOUR problems, seeing as how I am the king-hell oppressor in the pecking order.

Sorry about all those things, I was just being what I am.

I now have an excuse, just like you do.

Where the fuck did I imply that?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

Yeah, sorry about that, I see where there was a clarity fail now.

This implies that *I* am responsible for YOUR problems, seeing as how I am the king-hell oppressor in the pecking order.

Sorry about all those things, I was just being what I am.

I now have an excuse, just like you do.

Where the fuck did I imply that?

White males are the top of the shit heap, right?  We are in fact the top-dog oppressor.  And since we all know that shit rolls downhill (and splashes all over everything at or near the bottom), reason dictates that my privilege is the author of your misfortune.  See how that works?  (I trust you can spot the obvious fallacy)

You know what the funny thing about privilege is?  It isn't "rights", because privileges can be revoked.  Therefore, privilege has NOTHING to do with oppression, because all privilege means is that some forms of oppression haven't been enacted on you because they merely haven't gotten around to you, or because you have escaped their notice. 

Consider:

The person who is dragged off in the night, tortured, and either killed or indefinitely imprisoned without trial isn't "being oppressed", that person is being FUCKED.  PROPER.

The person who lives under the specter of the above is being oppressed.  Privilege is not preventing that treatment, it is the state of that treatment not occurring at the moment.

The person who orders the above to occur is the oppressor, NOT the person hiding in their privilege, pretending nothing's wrong because surely THEY won't come after such a fine example of male White American exceptionalism or whatever the privilege they think they enjoy.

[Signora Pæsior]

And while I'm thinking about it, oppressions aren't rankable (I seem to recall this coming up earlier but god knows where). It's all situational and oppression Olympics are bullshit. There are situations where I will be in a position of privilege over a black man, and there are times when he will be in a position of privilege over me. And a white guy is in a position of privilege over both of us.

Sorry, I should have said: all other things being equal.

It's still a blatant ranking.

White people holding societal privilege over black people, or men holding societal privilege over women, is something that patriarchy and/or kyriarchy ranks us on, yes. No arguments here. That's not what I was talking about with my first sentence, though. There is a tendency to say (not in this thread, just generally) that "sexism is worse than racism" or "racism is worse than heterosexism" or what the fuck ever, when there isn't an Official Ranking of Societal Oppressions And How Terrible They Are. It's all situational.

Or have I misinterpreted what you find objectionable?

Well, sure.  They all pale in comparison to Mighty Whitey.  Specifically male CIS/Straight Mighty Whitey.  Beneath THAT, there's no ranking, then.

Yeah, sorry about that, I see where there was a clarity fail now.

This implies that *I* am responsible for YOUR problems, seeing as how I am the king-hell oppressor in the pecking order.

Sorry about all those things, I was just being what I am.

I now have an excuse, just like you do.

Where the fuck did I imply that?

White males are the top of the shit heap, right?  We are in fact the top-dog oppressor.  And since we all know that shit rolls downhill (and splashes all over everything at or near the bottom), reason dictates that my privilege is the author of your misfortune.  See how that works?  (I trust you can spot the obvious fallacy)

You know what the funny thing about privilege is?  It isn't "rights", because privileges can be revoked.  Therefore, privilege has NOTHING to do with oppression, because all privilege means is that some forms of oppression haven't been enacted on you because they merely haven't gotten around to you, or because you have escaped their notice. 

Consider:

The person who is dragged off in the night, tortured, and either killed or indefinitely imprisoned without trial isn't "being oppressed", that person is being FUCKED.  PROPER.

The person who lives under the specter of the above is being oppressed.  Privilege is not preventing that treatment, it is the state of that treatment not occurring at the moment.

The person who orders the above to occur is the oppressor, NOT the person hiding in their privilege, pretending nothing's wrong because surely THEY won't come after such a fine example of male White American exceptionalism or whatever the privilege they think they enjoy.

I can spot the fallacy, but I never made it. You did.

It sounds like you want to argue the existence of structural privilege, which is a completely different discussion to the one we're having. Let me know if I've got that wrong, though.

[AFK]

Aww jeez, MOAR adjectives. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It sounds like you want to argue the existence of structural privilege, which is a completely different discussion to the one we're having. Let me know if I've got that wrong, though.

No, that's not at what I'm arguing at all.  I want to argue the definition of privilege.

And it's more fucked up than it seems.  Consider the following two examples:

1.  A woman is raped.  She is obviously enjoying no privilege whatsoever.

2.  A woman is not raped.  By the arguments given in this thread since page 23 or so, she is enjoying the privilege of having the status of "not being raped".

Privileges are granted by chance or by power greater than yours being exerted (or by a hostile strength NOT being exerted, as in the second example above).

RIGHTS, on the other hand, are seized, and then assumed.  I would expect that a society worth having would work toward a woman having the RIGHT not to be raped, rather than focusing on who has enjoyed the privilege of "not being fucked over yet".

Arguing privilege is like having two people fighting over who gets to be eaten by a lion last.

[Signora Pæsior]

It sounds like you want to argue the existence of structural privilege, which is a completely different discussion to the one we're having. Let me know if I've got that wrong, though.

No, that's not at what I'm arguing at all.  I want to argue the definition of privilege.

And it's more fucked up than it seems.  Consider the following two examples:

1.  A woman is raped.  She is obviously enjoying no privilege whatsoever.

2.  A woman is not raped.  By the arguments given in this thread since page 23 or so, she is enjoying the privilege of having the status of "not being raped".

Privileges are granted by chance or by power greater than yours being exerted (or by a hostile strength NOT being exerted, as in the second example above).

RIGHTS, on the other hand, are seized, and then assumed.  I would expect that a society worth having would work toward a woman having the RIGHT not to be raped, rather than focusing on who has enjoyed the privilege of "not being fucked over yet".

Arguing privilege is like having two people fighting over who gets to be eaten by a lion last.

Okay, awesome, I see where you're coming from now. Thanks!

I'm not totally sure I agree, but I definitely want to have the discussion. I'm going to come back to this when I'm finished work for the day and am actually using PD on a computer.

Might be worth a separate thread once I've wrapped my head around what I want to say 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It sounds like you want to argue the existence of structural privilege, which is a completely different discussion to the one we're having. Let me know if I've got that wrong, though.

No, that's not at what I'm arguing at all.  I want to argue the definition of privilege.

And it's more fucked up than it seems.  Consider the following two examples:

1.  A woman is raped.  She is obviously enjoying no privilege whatsoever.

2.  A woman is not raped.  By the arguments given in this thread since page 23 or so, she is enjoying the privilege of having the status of "not being raped".

Privileges are granted by chance or by power greater than yours being exerted (or by a hostile strength NOT being exerted, as in the second example above).

RIGHTS, on the other hand, are seized, and then assumed.  I would expect that a society worth having would work toward a woman having the RIGHT not to be raped, rather than focusing on who has enjoyed the privilege of "not being fucked over yet".

Arguing privilege is like having two people fighting over who gets to be eaten by a lion last.

Okay, awesome, I see where you're coming from now. Thanks!

I'm not totally sure I agree, but I definitely want to have the discussion. I'm going to come back to this when I'm finished work for the day and am actually using PD on a computer.

Might be worth a separate thread once I've wrapped my head around what I want to say 

Oki doke.  I'll be going to bed in about an hour and a half, but I'll read your responses in the morning.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Another way to say it:  Privilege isn't power, it's the state of "not currently paying the price of powerlessness."

[Pæs]

Maybe I'm going to look like a huge asshole according to Paesior,

I am now operating under the ground rule that if someone wants to advance an argument, they should, despite what anyone may decide is an "unacceptable opinion".  If you can't talk about it without accusing the other side of being some horrible monster and/or bigot, then you probably don't have a very good argument yourself.

Fanaticism is just another way to not think.

Agreed. Though I will point out that I wasn't putting words into his mouth:

Hopefully he doesn't come back and say he was describing things that affect striaght white cis males because then he would "look like a huge asshole".

I'll point out that "look like a huge asshole" was in quotations because it was a direct quotation from Freeky who attacked me for interpreting your argument exactly as you were making it.

She said that you and Signora were making the same point and that if your argument were for cis white guys being oppressed, you would look like a huge asshole for undermining your own argument or something.

I guess you missed the part where I explicitly said I didn't disagree with that as a criticism of Signora's post and tried to clarify whether "these are all things cis guys are immune from" a typo or sarcasm.

But, fuck, why should anyone respond to attempts to communicate after being butthurt has served us so well this far.