Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness of "gender" as a concept. It seems superfluous, given that physical sex and sexual orientation (in all of its myriad forms) covers most of what people need to figure out about their own sexual identity.

I'm completely open to the idea that I only think this because I have a penis and feel like a man so it's not something that's ever been an issue for me personally. But from an outsider's perspective, it's sorta like "OK, you have these genitals and are attracted to this type of person" and what else do you really need? Isn't the idea of gender as a social construct somewhat antithetical to the idea of sexual equality in the first place? how do you "feel like a man" if you reject society's traditional sexual roles in the first place?

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, this is just a subject I really lack a clear understanding of.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness of "gender" as a concept. It seems superfluous, given that physical sex and sexual orientation (in all of its myriad forms) covers most of what people need to figure out about their own sexual identity.

I'm completely open to the idea that I only think this because I have a penis and feel like a man so it's not something that's ever been an issue for me personally. But from an outsider's perspective, it's sorta like "OK, you have these genitals and are attracted to this type of person" and what else do you really need? Isn't the idea of gender as a social construct somewhat antithetical to the idea of sexual equality in the first place? how do you "feel like a man" if you reject society's traditional sexual roles in the first place?

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, this is just a subject I really lack a clear understanding of.

It's helpful for some people to finally have words to describe things they have struggled with and faced massive amounts of ridicule for.

How are gender roles antithetical to sexual equality?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness of "gender" as a concept. It seems superfluous, given that physical sex and sexual orientation (in all of its myriad forms) covers most of what people need to figure out about their own sexual identity.

I'm completely open to the idea that I only think this because I have a penis and feel like a man so it's not something that's ever been an issue for me personally. But from an outsider's perspective, it's sorta like "OK, you have these genitals and are attracted to this type of person" and what else do you really need? Isn't the idea of gender as a social construct somewhat antithetical to the idea of sexual equality in the first place? how do you "feel like a man" if you reject society's traditional sexual roles in the first place?

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, this is just a subject I really lack a clear understanding of. It's possible that at some point we will come to a cultural understanding of gender as something that is part of a very broad and complex spectrum like personality, and the whole gender issue will become a non-issue.

It's really complex and I don't have all the answers for that. I've asked many of the same questions myself.

[Salty]

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness of "gender" as a concept. It seems superfluous, given that physical sex and sexual orientation (in all of its myriad forms) covers most of what people need to figure out about their own sexual identity.

I'm completely open to the idea that I only think this because I have a penis and feel like a man so it's not something that's ever been an issue for me personally. But from an outsider's perspective, it's sorta like "OK, you have these genitals and are attracted to this type of person" and what else do you really need? Isn't the idea of gender as a social construct somewhat antithetical to the idea of sexual equality in the first place? how do you "feel like a man" if you reject society's traditional sexual roles in the first place?

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, this is just a subject I really lack a clear understanding of.

The reason why it's an issue is that so many people don't take that into consideration. It is a social construct that is imposed, for the most part, to illustrate a sharp divide so that property is distributed to one side of it. The five books of Moses, for better or worse, include detailed plans for asserting behavior and morality that, in the end, determines how property is passed on.

Imagine you've just started being able to hoard food because you've figured out how to cultivate it, and no longer have to go out into the wild and find it. Who gets your hoard? Why, your son naturally. But what if he doesn't cut the muster? What if he is a weakling who can't provide for a family in the way you have? What determines your offsprings ability to carry on your legacy?

Is it prowess in what are considered male acts (hunting, fishing, fighting off enemies)?

Eventually in our development there was a line that was drawn saying: Men are in charge. Men are on THIS side of the line. Women are on the other side. What about women who don't know which side to stand on? What about men who go over to the other side of that line?

Kai has posted that he was found of destroying gender roles.

But now that we are stuck with these gender roles I think, rather than do away with them (they are our heritage and unavoidable now) I think we merely need to celebrate and encourage diversity in this expression of self.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Possibly someday our culture will come to view gender as a broad spectrum much like personality, and the issue of gender will become a non-issue. It seems unlikely though.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I think we merely need to celebrate and encourage diversity in this expression of self.

For me it boils down to that ^.

And if that means annihilating the concept of gender roles in your worldview or embracing an unusual mix of them, more power to you.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think we merely need to celebrate and encourage diversity in this expression of self.

For me it boils down to that ^.

And if that means annihilating the concept of gender roles in your worldview or embracing an unusual mix of them, more power to you.

Yes. And I think a large part of that means accepting whatever it is that works for other people, and not trying to enforce our idea of "right" on their lives, as long as they aren't enforcing their idea of "right" on anyone else's.

[Juana]

Possibly someday our culture will come to view gender as a broad spectrum much like personality, and the issue of gender will become a non-issue. It seems unlikely though.

As someone who is nearly 100% in the closet on this, I agree. Monkeys don't deal well with things that don't belong.

I'm not sure I understand the usefulness of "gender" as a concept. It seems superfluous, given that physical sex and sexual orientation (in all of its myriad forms) covers most of what people need to figure out about their own sexual identity.

I'm completely open to the idea that I only think this because I have a penis and feel like a man so it's not something that's ever been an issue for me personally. But from an outsider's perspective, it's sorta like "OK, you have these genitals and are attracted to this type of person" and what else do you really need? Isn't the idea of gender as a social construct somewhat antithetical to the idea of sexual equality in the first place? how do you "feel like a man" if you reject society's traditional sexual roles in the first place?

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, this is just a subject I really lack a clear understanding of.

No, you're good.

Gender and sexuality are not linked.

It has nothing to do with the fact that you have a dick (because there are transwomen who have not had genital surgery for whatever reason and therefore still own their own dick) and more to do with the fact that your identity (at a fundamental level) does not seem to have gone beyond the bounds of what society expects you to be.

I need to go play chauffeur for a bit, so I'll come back with hopefully the rest of my answer.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

WAIT so... "cis" and "trans" are both in reference to "gender role"...

This entails no deconstruction of gender roles?

Shouldnt trans and cis both be thrown out the window?

ETA: like, i think the idea of "bigender" is a step forward; although it has a baseline assuming what roles are for each gender, it acknowledges the possibility of acting different roles in different situations!

They have nothing to do with gender roles. Gender roles are "women cook and clean, and men bring home the bacon and mow the lawn." "Cis" and "trans*" are over-arching umbrella terms regarding gender identity. They have nothing to do with societal expectations of a gender or how you live them out.
Also, "bigender" is a gender. They're people who identify as both a man and a woman at the same time (and there are more than two genders, Joh!).

I'm still not understanding this whole gender identity thing (when it doesn't pertain to if you have a penis or not).
If you don't come to the conclusion based on roles and what society expects of male or female, then how is it you feel like one or the other? How do you know that this feeling isn't just human?

Sita, I tried to google something to clarify it for myself as much as you, and I found this hash of test questions that asks everything from whether you like stuff like math and Star Trek to whether you get aroused fantasizing that you have a wang.

Not sure what to make of it. http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/sage/test.htm

[Juana]

That is a fucking awful test.

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I think we merely need to celebrate and encourage diversity in this expression of self.

For me it boils down to that ^.

And if that means annihilating the concept of gender roles in your worldview or embracing an unusual mix of them, more power to you.

Yes. And I think a large part of that means accepting whatever it is that works for other people, and not trying to enforce our idea of "right" on their lives, as long as they aren't enforcing their idea of "right" on anyone else's.

Totally.

That actually ties in with why I think it's now imperative for me to not use gendered slurs at all—there is an insidiously coercive quality to them that is unspoken. As a straight cis male such words don't have a cluster of traumatic memories anchored to them that, statistically, would quietly get dredged up (not always to a conscious degree) had I been born with any other sexual identity.

Connotations can be very powerful and affect people outside of awareness. With repetition as value judgments, even if not explicitly intended or understood on a denotative level, gendered slurs have a normative effect. They implicitly reinforce the idea that if you're not a hetro male you're inferior and that it's okay for people to verbally abuse you, even if that's only immediately experienced as subtle emotional pain. Putting the impetus on a traumatized person to say, "Hey that bothers me quite a lot when you say things like that," seems like an exploitation of my privilege.

So yeah, I'm jumping the gendered slurs ship.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

That is a fucking awful test.

Good, it's not just me. 

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

Not trying to troll or act a dumbfuck here, but I'm totally confused at this point.

Sometimes when I watch old movies, I get off into a thing where I'm thinking how cool it would be to look like the female lead. Not a sexual thing, I just wish I could BE that for awhile, if I had those eyes, that shape, moved like that, etc. I feel like my shit's all fucked up...body image thing. Is it kind of like that, but opposite sexed?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

That is a fucking awful test.

Good, it's not just me. 

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

Not trying to troll or act a dumbfuck here, but I'm totally confused at this point.

Sometimes when I watch old movies, I get off into a thing where I'm thinking how cool it would be to look like the female lead. Not a sexual thing, I just wish I could BE that for awhile, if I had those eyes, that shape, moved like that, etc. I feel like my shit's all fucked up...body image thing. Is it kind of like that, but opposite sexed?

Kind of, but think more on a daily basis and that you don't fit the usual gender roles that you were born with.

Awful test was awful, reckoned I was mentally androgynous, and a female to male crossdresser, (I just like wearing suits and ties, and trousers a lot..)and that I'm weird because bisexuals don't usually do that, but I socialise in a feminine manner.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

That is a fucking awful test.

Good, it's not just me. 

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

Not trying to troll or act a dumbfuck here, but I'm totally confused at this point.

Sometimes when I watch old movies, I get off into a thing where I'm thinking how cool it would be to look like the female lead. Not a sexual thing, I just wish I could BE that for awhile, if I had those eyes, that shape, moved like that, etc. I feel like my shit's all fucked up...body image thing. Is it kind of like that, but opposite sexed?

Kind of, but think more on a daily basis and that you don't fit the usual gender roles that you were born with.

Awful test was awful, reckoned I was mentally androgynous, and a female to male crossdresser, (I just like wearing suits and ties, and trousers a lot..)and that I'm weird because bisexuals don't usually do that, but I socialise in a feminine manner.

A lot of the "feminine" responses to that test reminded be of "barbie". 

[Juana]

That is a fucking awful test.

Good, it's not just me. 

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

Not trying to troll or act a dumbfuck here, but I'm totally confused at this point.

Sometimes when I watch old movies, I get off into a thing where I'm thinking how cool it would be to look like the female lead. Not a sexual thing, I just wish I could BE that for awhile, if I had those eyes, that shape, moved like that, etc. I feel like my shit's all fucked up...body image thing. Is it kind of like that, but opposite sexed?

I suppose it can be, if you're transsexual. Dysmorphia is a bit like that, except it involves feeling alienated from your body and THIS DOES NOT BELONG HERE (ime, anyway; ask ten queers what being queer is like and you'll get a hundred answers).

That is a fucking awful test.

Good, it's not just me. 

TBH, it's really hard to explain. For me, it was an innate sense of not being what I was supposed to be. I don't know how it worked for other queers or how to explain it better than that.

Not trying to troll or act a dumbfuck here, but I'm totally confused at this point.

Sometimes when I watch old movies, I get off into a thing where I'm thinking how cool it would be to look like the female lead. Not a sexual thing, I just wish I could BE that for awhile, if I had those eyes, that shape, moved like that, etc. I feel like my shit's all fucked up...body image thing. Is it kind of like that, but opposite sexed?

Kind of, but think more on a daily basis and that you don't fit the usual gender roles that you were born with.

Awful test was awful, reckoned I was mentally androgynous, and a female to male crossdresser, (I just like wearing suits and ties, and trousers a lot..)and that I'm weird because bisexuals don't usually do that, but I socialise in a feminine manner.

^^ Yes. I do a lot of man-drag when I'm...masculine or whatever you want to call it. This end of the gender spectrum for me (which involves a whole set of different subconscious behaviors than the other end).