LABELS - The Thread!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I didn't say it was worse. I said it was different.

It's beginning to sound like a cause.

Feminism/eglatarianism isn't a cause, it's a behavior.  When it becomes a cause, it becomes the "ism" instead of the beneficial thing it started out to be.  It becomes a uniform that you put on, button up REAL tight around your throat, and then stomp around in, demanding that your ism gets all the due recognition it deserves.

But here's the problem:  In addition to losing the actual value of the behavior, you also induce emotional fatigue in those around you.  It's not that people want to stop caring, it's that they become weary of hearing the same thing being bellowed over and over again, and they CAN'T keep caring.

After 911, there was about a 2 year period in which ~ 80% of the population was scared into a national nervous breakdown.  People were fucking TERRIFIED right out of their rational minds.  By 2004, however, they were losing the capability of remaining scared, and by the Detroit attempt in 2009, everyone was laughing at the idiot terrorist that burned his junk off.

So now we're having "privilege" and "rape" repeatedly being brought up to the exclusion of any other facet of the whole feminism/eglatarianism conversation.  It's been addressed to death, brought back to life, clubbed back into it's grave, dug up, and hauled through the village streets.  These two facets of the conversation have become the ENTIRE conversation, and there's nothing more to be said about it...And they've taken the REST of the ideas with them.

In fact, it's turned "addressed from privilege" from a valid concern to what is being perceived as a means of shutting down disagreement, even if that was never the intent.

So at this point I have to ask if there's anything more to talk about, because if it's going to continue to be about privilege and rape, I'd like to leave the conversations/threads while I still have any capacity for outrage on these subjects at all.

For God's sake, BUMP.

Maybe because those are two points on which people still feel they are not being heard. That's usually the case when issues keep resurfacing.

I had an insight on this whole thing, but it's gone now.

3 threads all turn into the same two things over and over again.  Might be that people aren't being heard.  Might also be that they don't have anything else to say on the subject.

In any case, I'll return to the conversation later.

I kinda disagree with you on the "don't have anything else to say on the subject" issue. What I, personally, keep noticing is that a recurring trend is that when men talk about their experiences, people tend to say "It sucks that you were treated that way; here is why the other person might have acted that way" and when women talk about their experiences, people tend to say "This is what you should do/think differently".

I think that kind of response tends to put people on the defensive, and then the conversation gets taken over by the debate about women's experiences.

And while we're doing that, shit like THIS happens:

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/17/710101/gop-senate-candidate-suggests-the-voting-rights-act-of-1965-should-be-overturned/

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And nobody should go here:

http://www.facebook.com/supportakin?ref=ts

[East Coast Hustle]

Whoops. I didn't go there. And I'm sure I won't be accused of being a "Dem operative" in a few minutes.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Comments seem to stay up longer there than they do on Rick Perry's page. His facebook lackeys must be in church. 

[Salty]

You shouldn't send me to places like that PrototypeJesus.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

You shouldn't send me to places like that PrototypeJesus.

He said you SHOULDN'T GO. Who are you to disobey? {/mind laZrz}

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I didn't say it was worse. I said it was different.

It's beginning to sound like a cause.

Feminism/eglatarianism isn't a cause, it's a behavior.  When it becomes a cause, it becomes the "ism" instead of the beneficial thing it started out to be.  It becomes a uniform that you put on, button up REAL tight around your throat, and then stomp around in, demanding that your ism gets all the due recognition it deserves.

But here's the problem:  In addition to losing the actual value of the behavior, you also induce emotional fatigue in those around you.  It's not that people want to stop caring, it's that they become weary of hearing the same thing being bellowed over and over again, and they CAN'T keep caring.

After 911, there was about a 2 year period in which ~ 80% of the population was scared into a national nervous breakdown.  People were fucking TERRIFIED right out of their rational minds.  By 2004, however, they were losing the capability of remaining scared, and by the Detroit attempt in 2009, everyone was laughing at the idiot terrorist that burned his junk off.

So now we're having "privilege" and "rape" repeatedly being brought up to the exclusion of any other facet of the whole feminism/eglatarianism conversation.  It's been addressed to death, brought back to life, clubbed back into it's grave, dug up, and hauled through the village streets.  These two facets of the conversation have become the ENTIRE conversation, and there's nothing more to be said about it...And they've taken the REST of the ideas with them.

In fact, it's turned "addressed from privilege" from a valid concern to what is being perceived as a means of shutting down disagreement, even if that was never the intent.

So at this point I have to ask if there's anything more to talk about, because if it's going to continue to be about privilege and rape, I'd like to leave the conversations/threads while I still have any capacity for outrage on these subjects at all.

For God's sake, BUMP.

Maybe because those are two points on which people still feel they are not being heard. That's usually the case when issues keep resurfacing.

I had an insight on this whole thing, but it's gone now.

3 threads all turn into the same two things over and over again.  Might be that people aren't being heard.  Might also be that they don't have anything else to say on the subject.

In any case, I'll return to the conversation later.

I kinda disagree with you on the "don't have anything else to say on the subject" issue. What I, personally, keep noticing is that a recurring trend is that when men talk about their experiences, people tend to say "It sucks that you were treated that way; here is why the other person might have acted that way" and when women talk about their experiences, people tend to say "This is what you should do/think differently".

I think that kind of response tends to put people on the defensive, and then the conversation gets taken over by the debate about women's experiences.

And while we're doing that, shit like THIS happens:

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/17/710101/gop-senate-candidate-suggests-the-voting-rights-act-of-1965-should-be-overturned/

What's your point? Is it that we shouldn't be wasting time talking about things like rape and gender inequality and trying to come to a point of mutual understanding and communication, because there are other fucked-up issues that need to be addressed?

Well fuck it. I don't belong on this board at all. I should be narrowing down my concerns to the one most important injustice, and focusing on that exclusively.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I didn't say it was worse. I said it was different.

It's beginning to sound like a cause.

Feminism/eglatarianism isn't a cause, it's a behavior.  When it becomes a cause, it becomes the "ism" instead of the beneficial thing it started out to be.  It becomes a uniform that you put on, button up REAL tight around your throat, and then stomp around in, demanding that your ism gets all the due recognition it deserves.

But here's the problem:  In addition to losing the actual value of the behavior, you also induce emotional fatigue in those around you.  It's not that people want to stop caring, it's that they become weary of hearing the same thing being bellowed over and over again, and they CAN'T keep caring.

After 911, there was about a 2 year period in which ~ 80% of the population was scared into a national nervous breakdown.  People were fucking TERRIFIED right out of their rational minds.  By 2004, however, they were losing the capability of remaining scared, and by the Detroit attempt in 2009, everyone was laughing at the idiot terrorist that burned his junk off.

So now we're having "privilege" and "rape" repeatedly being brought up to the exclusion of any other facet of the whole feminism/eglatarianism conversation.  It's been addressed to death, brought back to life, clubbed back into it's grave, dug up, and hauled through the village streets.  These two facets of the conversation have become the ENTIRE conversation, and there's nothing more to be said about it...And they've taken the REST of the ideas with them.

In fact, it's turned "addressed from privilege" from a valid concern to what is being perceived as a means of shutting down disagreement, even if that was never the intent.

So at this point I have to ask if there's anything more to talk about, because if it's going to continue to be about privilege and rape, I'd like to leave the conversations/threads while I still have any capacity for outrage on these subjects at all.

For God's sake, BUMP.

Maybe because those are two points on which people still feel they are not being heard. That's usually the case when issues keep resurfacing.

I had an insight on this whole thing, but it's gone now.

3 threads all turn into the same two things over and over again.  Might be that people aren't being heard.  Might also be that they don't have anything else to say on the subject.

In any case, I'll return to the conversation later.

I kinda disagree with you on the "don't have anything else to say on the subject" issue. What I, personally, keep noticing is that a recurring trend is that when men talk about their experiences, people tend to say "It sucks that you were treated that way; here is why the other person might have acted that way" and when women talk about their experiences, people tend to say "This is what you should do/think differently".

I think that kind of response tends to put people on the defensive, and then the conversation gets taken over by the debate about women's experiences.

Never noticed a general trend but I can't say that's my MO. I will only ever advise the victim to try something different, regardless of whether they have tits or not. Yes I can sympathise. Yes the aggressor is in the wrong. Changes nothing - either you do something to stop being a victim or you'll be a victim. It's injust and wrong and everybody sympathises. And that's a whole bunch of pointless words that doesn't make the bruises stop happening.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I didn't say it was worse. I said it was different.

It's beginning to sound like a cause.

Feminism/eglatarianism isn't a cause, it's a behavior.  When it becomes a cause, it becomes the "ism" instead of the beneficial thing it started out to be.  It becomes a uniform that you put on, button up REAL tight around your throat, and then stomp around in, demanding that your ism gets all the due recognition it deserves.

But here's the problem:  In addition to losing the actual value of the behavior, you also induce emotional fatigue in those around you.  It's not that people want to stop caring, it's that they become weary of hearing the same thing being bellowed over and over again, and they CAN'T keep caring.

After 911, there was about a 2 year period in which ~ 80% of the population was scared into a national nervous breakdown.  People were fucking TERRIFIED right out of their rational minds.  By 2004, however, they were losing the capability of remaining scared, and by the Detroit attempt in 2009, everyone was laughing at the idiot terrorist that burned his junk off.

So now we're having "privilege" and "rape" repeatedly being brought up to the exclusion of any other facet of the whole feminism/eglatarianism conversation.  It's been addressed to death, brought back to life, clubbed back into it's grave, dug up, and hauled through the village streets.  These two facets of the conversation have become the ENTIRE conversation, and there's nothing more to be said about it...And they've taken the REST of the ideas with them.

In fact, it's turned "addressed from privilege" from a valid concern to what is being perceived as a means of shutting down disagreement, even if that was never the intent.

So at this point I have to ask if there's anything more to talk about, because if it's going to continue to be about privilege and rape, I'd like to leave the conversations/threads while I still have any capacity for outrage on these subjects at all.

For God's sake, BUMP.

Maybe because those are two points on which people still feel they are not being heard. That's usually the case when issues keep resurfacing.

I had an insight on this whole thing, but it's gone now.

3 threads all turn into the same two things over and over again.  Might be that people aren't being heard.  Might also be that they don't have anything else to say on the subject.

In any case, I'll return to the conversation later.

I kinda disagree with you on the "don't have anything else to say on the subject" issue. What I, personally, keep noticing is that a recurring trend is that when men talk about their experiences, people tend to say "It sucks that you were treated that way; here is why the other person might have acted that way" and when women talk about their experiences, people tend to say "This is what you should do/think differently".

I think that kind of response tends to put people on the defensive, and then the conversation gets taken over by the debate about women's experiences.

Never noticed a general trend but I can't say that's my MO. I will only ever advise the victim to try something different, regardless of whether they have tits or not. Yes I can sympathise. Yes the aggressor is in the wrong. Changes nothing - either you do something to stop being a victim or you'll be a victim. It's injust and wrong and everybody sympathises. And that's a whole bunch of pointless words that doesn't make the bruises stop happening.

The thing about unsolicited advice is that it may be useful/well received, but the judgement call of whether to offer it should probably take the context of the conversation into consideration, or you may come across as condescending or dismissive.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

[tyrannosaurus vex]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

This accidentally hits on a recurring relationship issue I've had with my wife. I don't necessarily think it's a "sexism" thing, but it may be a gender thing (I don't know, that could be a colossally ignorant assumption). But we tend to clash on this kind of thing, because when she's trying to get me to empathize with something that's bugging her, my immediate reaction is to try to find a solution to the problem. She would appreciate it more if I would just empathize and leave it at that, but my brain for whatever reason can't do that. I see a problem, my top priority is resolving it, not helping her feel sorry about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

This accidentally hits on a recurring relationship issue I've had with my wife. I don't necessarily think it's a "sexism" thing, but it may be a gender thing (I don't know, that could be a colossally ignorant assumption). But we tend to clash on this kind of thing, because when she's trying to get me to empathize with something that's bugging her, my immediate reaction is to try to find a solution to the problem. She would appreciate it more if I would just empathize and leave it at that, but my brain for whatever reason can't do that. I see a problem, my top priority is resolving it, not helping her feel sorry about it.

There is definitely a strong gender difference in communication; men are more likely to tend to try to "fix" things, while women are more likely to tend to try to communicate feelings. It can lead to some really frustrating interactions. Note that this is just a tendency; men also try to communicate feelings, and women also try to "fix" things.

It's also a social communication thing; people with better social skills are better able to make the judgement call of when to offer advice, and when unsolicited advice is likely to be unwanted/insulting.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

At that point, I agree, it's too late for "should have" and they "should have" STFU.

But I actually prefer "Next time try doing this..." to "aw, that must have been just awful". It gives me something I can use.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

At that point, I agree, it's too late for "should have" and they "should have" STFU.

But I actually prefer "Next time try doing this..." to "aw, that must have been just awful". It gives me something I can use.

I find it helps to try "aw, that must have been awful" before trying "next time try this," though. People (regardless of gender) tend to appreciate advice once they know it's coming from someone who's on their side, or at least who understands their predicament from their perspective.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

For example, if I'm trying to convey how I felt or reacted in a situation and am not specifically asking for adbice, and my listener responds with "Well, you should have done x instead of y", most likely my response is going to be "And you should go fuck yourself, you condescending prick... but thanks for assuming I'm an incompetent idiot".

At that point, I agree, it's too late for "should have" and they "should have" STFU.

But I actually prefer "Next time try doing this..." to "aw, that must have been just awful". It gives me something I can use.

I find it helps to try "aw, that must have been awful" before trying "next time try this," though. People (regardless of gender) tend to appreciate advice once they know it's coming from someone who's on their side, or at least who understands their predicament from their perspective.

True, as long as it's sincere and not that fake sad face that news anchors tend to put on when they're talking about apartment fires. 
Both together are the way to go. I was kind of looking at it like having to make a choice between one or the other, though.