LABELS - The Thread!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And to truly square the circle, we then need an authoritative right-libertarian pagan take on the Pussy Riot trial.

I'm not ready to trash the subject yet, if we can discuss new angles to the issue.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Try this:

Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:

- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)

Moving to a well-lit public space (-1 Wariness, -1 to anxiety)

- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)


Passed by a group of potential witnesses/ support if I get in trouble (-4 to anxiety)

-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)

They react to my presence. Good - this means they are biologically alive and conscious. This will help if I need their assitance for any reason (-2 to anxiety)

--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)

One of them is attracted to me. Too bad, I'm out of his league and he knows it but he makes a show in front of his friends as some pathetic attempt to save face. (+1 to ego)

- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)

Check reflection in door window - yup, I'm hawt!  (+2 to ego)

- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)

Bar is empty. Result -  I'm first in the queue!


- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)

Two doors leading in, I sit in the corner so I have an eye on both. All the glassware and possibly a baseball bat and/or shotgun behind the bar. If anything kicks off in this empty place then that's where I'm headed. Sitrep: Area secure. (-4 to anxiety)

- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)

Check bag - Can of mace! Something out the ordinary goes down I should have it covered

Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

Total:
-1 wariness
-11 anxiety
+3 ego

-- all I did was change the labels and swap proactive for paranoid

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

TITCM. Proper equality would mean freedom of movement without having to purposefully alter cognitive patterns and bluff the bravado to get over the fear. Proper equality would not being grabbed or leered at.

I will admit that I used to do things to make myself look bulkier when I was proper skinny and had big boobs, like the oversized leather biker jacket that hid boobs, always look like you know where you are going even when you are lost(BTW that one even worked when walking past crack dealers on Coldharbour Lane in Brixton, just me and another lassie), singing loudly in the street (that one stops a hell of a lot of street harrassment, tip is to appear fucking crazy, I also enjoyed singing and not giving a shit, so that one is a lot less of a puffer fish or balled hedgehog kinda response), and these days if guys do get grabby with me I turn on a fucking sixpence and channel my inner Scottish Radge "fuck off and keep your hands to yourself, pal" or a variation on it.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Try this:

Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:

- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)

Moving to a well-lit public space (-1 Wariness, -1 to anxiety)

- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)


Passed by a group of potential witnesses/ support if I get in trouble (-4 to anxiety)

-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)

They react to my presence. Good - this means they are biologically alive and conscious. This will help if I need their assitance for any reason (-2 to anxiety)

--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)

One of them is attracted to me. Too bad, I'm out of his league and he knows it but he makes a show in front of his friends as some pathetic attempt to save face. (+1 to ego)

- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)

Check reflection in door window - yup, I'm hawt!  (+2 to ego)

- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)

Bar is empty. Result -  I'm first in the queue!


- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)

Two doors leading in, I sit in the corner so I have an eye on both. All the glassware and possibly a baseball bat and/or shotgun behind the bar. If anything kicks off in this empty place then that's where I'm headed. Sitrep: Area secure. (-4 to anxiety)

- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)

Check bag - Can of mace! Something out the ordinary goes down I should have it covered

Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

Total:
-1 wariness
-11 anxiety
+3 ego

-- all I did was change the labels and swap proactive for paranoid

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

TITCM. Proper equality would mean freedom of movement without having to purposefully alter cognitive patterns and bluff the bravado to get over the fear. Proper equality would not being grabbed or leered at.

I will admit that I used to do things to make myself look bulkier when I was proper skinny and had big boobs, like the oversized leather biker jacket that hid boobs, always look like you know where you are going even when you are lost(BTW that one even worked when walking past crack dealers on Coldharbour Lane in Brixton, just me and another lassie), singing loudly in the street (that one stops a hell of a lot of street harrassment, tip is to appear fucking crazy, I also enjoyed singing and not giving a shit, so that one is a lot less of a puffer fish or balled hedgehog kinda response), and these days if guys do get grabby with me I turn on a fucking sixpence and channel my inner Scottish Radge "fuck off and keep your hands to yourself, pal" or a variation on it.

You have a roommate.

Roommate never does dishes, even though they're "supposed" to. There is not a clean plate, fork, or pan in the house. You're starved. You have no money to dine out. There is plenty of food in the house, but everything requires at least some cooking.

Until you can get rid of the roommate or move, do you:

A) Make up a new label and starve

B) Go to women's groups and talk about how this makes you FEEL so people can validate your feelings and starve

C) Wash ALL the dishes, every night, because somebody told you when you were growing up that if you don't, you're "not nice"

D) Wash what you need to make yourself something and throw it back in the sink when you're done.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

E) Leave all dishes on room mates bed and take some money from their wallet for pizza.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

E) Leave all dishes on room mates bed and take some money from their wallet for pizza.

I like that one. 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

D, because I'm already doing that, and am waiting for Payne's payrise before I kick the complete asshole out, and the lesser asshole is getting better at the whole cleaning thing.

I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the fear related to going out and about on my own, and how I've had to hack my own circuits just to get past the anxiety.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

D, because I'm already doing that, and am waiting for Payne's payrise before I kick the complete asshole out, and the lesser asshole is getting better at the whole cleaning thing.

I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the fear related to going out and about on my own, and how I've had to hack my own circuits just to get past the anxiety.

Welcome to the human condition.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I didn't say it was worse. I said it was different.

It's beginning to sound like a cause.

Feminism/eglatarianism isn't a cause, it's a behavior.  When it becomes a cause, it becomes the "ism" instead of the beneficial thing it started out to be.  It becomes a uniform that you put on, button up REAL tight around your throat, and then stomp around in, demanding that your ism gets all the due recognition it deserves.

But here's the problem:  In addition to losing the actual value of the behavior, you also induce emotional fatigue in those around you.  It's not that people want to stop caring, it's that they become weary of hearing the same thing being bellowed over and over again, and they CAN'T keep caring.

After 911, there was about a 2 year period in which ~ 80% of the population was scared into a national nervous breakdown.  People were fucking TERRIFIED right out of their rational minds.  By 2004, however, they were losing the capability of remaining scared, and by the Detroit attempt in 2009, everyone was laughing at the idiot terrorist that burned his junk off.

So now we're having "privilege" and "rape" repeatedly being brought up to the exclusion of any other facet of the whole feminism/eglatarianism conversation.  It's been addressed to death, brought back to life, clubbed back into it's grave, dug up, and hauled through the village streets.  These two facets of the conversation have become the ENTIRE conversation, and there's nothing more to be said about it...And they've taken the REST of the ideas with them.

In fact, it's turned "addressed from privilege" from a valid concern to what is being perceived as a means of shutting down disagreement, even if that was never the intent.

So at this point I have to ask if there's anything more to talk about, because if it's going to continue to be about privilege and rape, I'd like to leave the conversations/threads while I still have any capacity for outrage on these subjects at all.

For God's sake, BUMP.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

D, because I'm already doing that, and am waiting for Payne's payrise before I kick the complete asshole out, and the lesser asshole is getting better at the whole cleaning thing.

I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the fear related to going out and about on my own, and how I've had to hack my own circuits just to get past the anxiety.

We all have to hack our own circuits.... Not all because of rape specifically, but for a billion different reasons, all of them bad.

Jesus makes a good point (and again with his bump) the behavior seems far more valuable than the cause. When humans are free then humankind will be free (to steal from Mal-2). Each of us have to free ourselves, that's how everyone gets to be free.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

D, because I'm already doing that, and am waiting for Payne's payrise before I kick the complete asshole out, and the lesser asshole is getting better at the whole cleaning thing.

I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the fear related to going out and about on my own, and how I've had to hack my own circuits just to get past the anxiety.

Because a lot of assholes are always going to be assholes.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

D, because I'm already doing that, and am waiting for Payne's payrise before I kick the complete asshole out, and the lesser asshole is getting better at the whole cleaning thing.

I'm just not sure how this is relevant to the fear related to going out and about on my own, and how I've had to hack my own circuits just to get past the anxiety.

Because a lot of assholes are always going to be assholes.

Ok. fairy muff.

I should probably sleep. My dad is picking me up in 4 hours and I haven't seen him for about 2 months, and no doubt he's going to be an asshole about something, if its to me, my sister or my mum.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

- Men rarely help women or females in need. In fact, they're much more likely to berate any man who does.

I have only anecdotal shit on my side, here, but that hasn't been true so far as I've seen.  I may be looking at anamolous data, or you may just live in the shittiest city in America.

Of course, I do hang out with a low crowd, and we do tend to be more likely to jump into this sort of thing that the scum up in Oro Valley, because we're all opinionated, pushy bastards.

I'm going to ask you to listen, for this one. What you've seen and experienced is going to be different from what we've seen and experienced, because you're not in the same position. Sort of like whoever it was who was questioning whether racism is really worse in the south, because he as a white man hadn't seen it as worse.

It makes it really sticky because most rapist-types, especially in an environment like Portland, work hard to come across as "nice guys" who are just trying to be friendly and helpful. I don't think most of them see themselves as rapists, either. I think most of them think they're just being assertive, pushing boundaries, doing PUA shit. The result is that other people don't tend to take you seriously when you go to them and say "Nate is making me really uncomfortable, he's following me around and won't stop trying to hug me". They just go "Awwww, he's a really nice guy and he's just kind of drunk, don't let it bother you"

Uhhhh

It IS bothering me, that's why I'm trying to get the fuck away from it and looking for some backup, dude.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Wrong kind of eye contact.  Wrong kind of smile.  You have to smile like one of the Nigels.

Yeah, people reeeeally don't like that, for some reason. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

It's true. It's been a long time since I've been that young, but I remember the weirdly predatory manner that older men (I'm talking men in their 30's, who seem like anxious eager puppies to me now) would treat me with. It was fucking scary. Men (boys?) my own age seemed to view me as more of an equal, I didn't get that power-imbalance vibe from them. It was creepy as fuck. I look pretty young so I've had some men approach me with that kind of vibe, especially in a bar where they can't seethe gray hair, but I don't find them as generically threatening now... I think I take men in that age bracket more seriously as rape threats, but I am also better equipped to deal with them as such.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

You're a hiker, you're in shape.  Consider taking some self-defense courses, if you haven't already.  Men are easy to deal with, in more than the obvious way.  Especially older guys.

And I don't think it's a trap to counsel preparedness or aggression-at-need.  It's not right that you should have to, but the world ain't right, if you catch my drift.  Deal with the world as it is, while you work toward the world as you'd like it to be.

A sad but true point. I don't think the 'answer' is for women to learn to be tough. The 'answer' is for human society to evolve past this kind of shit. However, its not going to happen overnight, probably not even in our lifetime. Maybe it will improve some, but not to the point that women won't ever get raped... some men are useless pieces of shit. I don't think there's anything wrong with women learning to take control of a situation and learning how to bust a guy in the face if necessary. It's not the answer, but its a stopgap until we get to the answer.

At any rate, I think this is a tangent from the point on labels. Labeling "risk/danger" is part of human survival... I don't think its the same as labeling sexual preference, gender role, religion, skin color, job description etc.

The problem with resorting to violence (which I am not at all opposed to, for the record) is that in a fight, the weight advantage is almost everything. I am strong as fuck, but I am also 5'3" and 140# after a heavy meal. I can do some damage, and I know I can, but odds are that if a determined 5'10" 180# guy is going to be able to overpower and subdue me pretty easily. In fact, I know he can from experience. There is also a significant risk of enraging your attacker and ending up with broken bones and teeth, or dead instead of just raped. Let's be realistic, here.

Last time I was assaulted, I got away by laughing at him. He had me; he could have fucked me up pretty good. But when he told me what I "had" to do, I threw my head back and laughed, and said "no, I don't". And he let me go. That wasn't strategy. That was because I looked fucking crazy, and it scared him the same way pushy guys scare women, because you don't know what the fuck a crazy person might be capable of. The reason my aggression works for me is because it's intimidating, not because I could actually fight my way out of a corner.