LABELS - The Thread!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I mean, there is a place for that kind of advice, and it is useful survival advice, but I don't think a discussion like this one is the place.

Roger, if I walk into a bar and a guy I don't know smiles at me, I mentally mark him as likely to approach me later and maintain awareness of his location. I wouldn't react with automatic, visible fear, but if some chick has recently been assaulted, she might. It may hurt your feelings, and that right there is a good example of how rape culture also hurts men. Because some asshole assaulted her, or because she's justifiably afraid of someone assaulting her, you get robbed of your personhood in that interaction. It sucks for everyone.

Bars: I can't tell  you how many times I've had guys get weird on me in bars, or follow me out of bars. I was assaulted summer before last by a guy who followed me out of a bar, and I should have followed my gut and went right back in but I thought he was probably harmless and didn't want to hurt his feelings by seeming suspicious or scared.

What's alarming is how often predator types will act like they're in control of a situation if you get upset at them, and how often bystanders will just accept that and ignore it. Last summer, when my ex-friend grabbed my shoulder and tried to restrain me in a crowd of our friends, nobody intervened. NOBODY. Because they were under the impression that he had some kind of "right" to me, that we were just having a spat, and that he was in control of the situation. I've even had complete strangers use that manouver... I'm yelling at them to back off, people are staring, and the guy looks around, raises his hands, and says "everything's OK!" and people assume it's just a spat and go back to what they were doing. At that point, they've bought in, so even if you start screaming and yelling they are likely to assume that you're just unreasonable and out of control, and you may be asked to leave.

IME the best thing to do if someone is getting handsy and won't leave you alone is to go directly to the bartender, and refuse to leave the bar until you can get someone to escort you home.

The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE to do that. It's fucked up.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I mean, there is a place for that kind of advice, and it is useful survival advice, but I don't think a discussion like this one is the place.

As I said earlier, the way you carry yourself is just as much of a label as anything else.  Even more, actually, because no verbal interaction is necessary to convey the label.

Roger, if I walk into a bar and a guy I don't know smiles at me, I mentally mark him as likely to approach me later and maintain awareness of his location. I wouldn't react with automatic, visible fear, but if some chick has recently been assaulted, she might. It may hurt your feelings, and that right there is a good example of how rape culture also hurts men. Because some asshole assaulted her, or because she's justifiably afraid of someone assaulting her, you get robbed of your personhood in that interaction. It sucks for everyone.

No argument.  I was just putting a guy's side out there.  The woman in the example definitely has the shitty end of the stick...I'm just puzzled and wondering if there's a booger hanging out of my nose or something.  I'm not in fear.

What's alarming is how often predator types will act like they're in control of a situation if you get upset at them, and how often bystanders will just accept that and ignore it. Last summer, when my ex-friend grabbed my shoulder and tried to restrain me in a crowd of our friends, nobody intervened. NOBODY. Because they were under the impression that he had some kind of "right" to me, that we were just having a spat, and that he was in control of the situation.

That's right up there, morally-speaking, with people who don't believe "spousal rape" is actually rape.

I've even had complete strangers use that manouver... I'm yelling at them to back off, people are staring, and the guy looks around, raises his hands, and says "everything's OK!" and people assume it's just a spat and go back to what they were doing. At that point, they've bought in, so even if you start screaming and yelling they are likely to assume that you're just unreasonable and out of control, and you may be asked to leave.

"THE HELL IT IS!  I DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS GUY!"  Now he's in a world of shit, perhaps.

IME the best thing to do if someone is getting handsy and won't leave you alone is to go directly to the bartender, and refuse to leave the bar until you can get someone to escort you home.

The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE to do that. It's fucked up.

Yes, it certainly is.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

When you've actually had bad shit happen to you, it does increase your anxiety when you're in a similar situation. Yeah, it might be "in your head" but it's still real, and still a symptom of a fucked-up society in which bad shit can easily happen to a woman just because she's female, and other people will sit around and watch it happen and then blame you for it afterward.

There is no doubt about the truth of this. 

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

Well, we DO live in The World As It Is, not The World We Wish We Had.  So while we should work towards the world we wish we had, it is still important to remain sane and alive in the world we actually have at the moment.

You can't live in fear all the time and remain sane.  You can't rely on safety gained merely by demanding it.

What is required is individual strength.  Strength of character, strength of nerve, and the strength with which to defend yourself to the best of your ability, should it become necessary.  One of society's most insidious labels is the "woman in need of a defender", when the woman should look to her own defense FIRST, before considering the possibility of some "white knight" coming to the rescue.  Women CAN do this, because women are strong as fuck when they're not conditioned out of it, despite the difference in body mass and upper body strength between the average male & female.

Carry a rock in your fist, figuratively or literally, and you've solved The Fear and the issue of physical safety.

I'm not an expert on anthropology or anything, but I think you'll find that strong people will make the world we wish we had.

Yeah. The creepy-rapey assholes don't give a fuck about dialogue or being educated out of it or any of that.
They modify their behavior if they think the risk outweighs the potential payoff.

[Juana]

Try this:

Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:

- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)

Moving to a well-lit public space (-1 Wariness, -1 to anxiety)

- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)


Passed by a group of potential witnesses/ support if I get in trouble (-4 to anxiety)

-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)

They react to my presence. Good - this means they are biologically alive and conscious. This will help if I need their assitance for any reason (-2 to anxiety)

--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)

One of them is attracted to me. Too bad, I'm out of his league and he knows it but he makes a show in front of his friends as some pathetic attempt to save face. (+1 to ego)

- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)

Check reflection in door window - yup, I'm hawt!  (+2 to ego)

- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)

Bar is empty. Result -  I'm first in the queue!


- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)

Two doors leading in, I sit in the corner so I have an eye on both. All the glassware and possibly a baseball bat and/or shotgun behind the bar. If anything kicks off in this empty place then that's where I'm headed. Sitrep: Area secure. (-4 to anxiety)

- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)

Check bag - Can of mace! Something out the ordinary goes down I should have it covered

Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

Total:
-1 wariness
-11 anxiety
+3 ego

-- all I did was change the labels and swap proactive for paranoid

- It's a bar. Outside was still bright enough to be comfortable, inside, no (the patio is tucked under the roof). (I have concluded I'm not going to this bar (because it's still my favorite), or any bar, until it's busy because busy = safer)
- Men rarely help women or females in need. In fact, they're much more likely to berate any man who does.
- A guy who sets off my creeper bells, who seems to be attracted to me, will make me nervous. End of story. Expecting me to ignore them is not okay because it's denying me the right to listen to my intuition (which is usually right about people).
- First in line is nice, but it's a Wednesday night anyway and doesn't make up for the rest of the situation.
- I don't have that much control over the set up of the room. The best I could have done was sit at the inside bar against the wall, which is right next to the men who were making me wary.
- Yes, I do need to buy some CS gas.

Wow. This was a spectacularly shitty way to prove a point. Bad, bad example. Sorry Roger. D:

But anyway, women spend their entire lives trying to stay safe (go find Pixie's comment string in OH NOEZ on the subject, since I have effectively proven myself to be neurotic). We're socialized to deal with Schrodinger's rapist (we have no idea who is and who is not, but we have to prevent him from doing it anyway).
That's not something men have to live with. You can empathize, but you don't actually live with a perpetual, low-level fear of rape.

No, but I have perpetual, low-level anxieties of my own.  The flavor is different, the effect is the same.

That's exactly our point. You get it, but that's not the same as living it (I have no idea what your anxieties are, but I doubt my experiences are similar enough for me to say "I live it" or whatever).

Neither set of fears means that there is a "practical difference" in our motivation or ability to advance eglatarianism, which is about the only thing that should matter in terms of the various discussions we've been having.

People fall into the following catagories, more or less:

1.  Elgatarians/feminists.
2.  Non-Eglatarians/feminists (usually because they have misconceptions about what this means_.
3.  Anti-eglatarians/feminists.

You already have group 1.  There is no need to "close the sale", they're already on your side.  A need to educate them or drive home "essential differences" is a losing strategy.

You can't reach group 3, at least not without disproportionate effort.  The most you can do is refuse to tolerate their bullshit.

Group 2 is your market.  "You need to reach them with a message that counters the lies of group 3.  No, eglatarians are not out to castrate you, dude."  "No, lady, being a feminist does not mean you can't dress up sexy for your husband or BF or whatever if that's what you want to do."  "No, your pastor is wrong...Read the Aprocrypha, particularly Ben & Ruth".  Marginalize "jokes" and yahoo behavior.

Never did I say there was a difference in motivation (I just said empathy is not the same as living it) or ability to advance egalitarianism (you as a man have a louder voice than we do, which you ought to use to help get others to listen to us; we frame the debate and you help us carry it through because more people are going to take YOU seriously than they will us).

Agreed on the markets, though.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

- Men rarely help women or females in need. In fact, they're much more likely to berate any man who does.

I have only anecdotal shit on my side, here, but that hasn't been true so far as I've seen.  I may be looking at anamolous data, or you may just live in the shittiest city in America.

Of course, I do hang out with a low crowd, and we do tend to be more likely to jump into this sort of thing that the scum up in Oro Valley, because we're all opinionated, pushy bastards. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Never did I say there was a difference in motivation (I just said empathy is not the same as living it) or ability to advance egalitarianism (you as a man have a louder voice than we do, which you ought to use to help get others to listen to us; we frame the debate and you help us carry it through because more people are going to take YOU seriously than they will us).

Agreed on the markets, though.

I can't do that.  I mean, I can and I will, but I can't be everywhere, and neither can anyone else.  You have to be loud yourself.  You've got to make them take you seriously.  It's been done before, in much rougher circumstances than this...the sufferagettes, etc.  Those are big boots to fill, but nobody said this shit was easy.

[AFK]

It isn't true in my part of the world either.  I have often seen men help women with flat tires, pick up items that have spilled, get high things in the grocery store, etc.  I've NEVER seen any of the, get berated.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

- Yes, I do need to buy some CS gas.

Bear spray.

Or a 316 stainless blunt spike.  Use it as a keychain.  It's the best friend a normally non-violent person can have in a bad spot.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It isn't true in my part of the world either.  I have often seen men help women with flat tires, pick up items that have spilled, get high things in the grocery store, etc.  I've NEVER seen any of the, get berated.

Still, anecdotal.  I don't have enough data to agree or disagree with Garbo's statement.

[Juana]

- Men rarely help women or females in need. In fact, they're much more likely to berate any man who does.

I have only anecdotal shit on my side, here, but that hasn't been true so far as I've seen.  I may be looking at anamolous data, or you may just live in the shittiest city in America.

Of course, I do hang out with a low crowd, and we do tend to be more likely to jump into this sort of thing that the scum up in Oro Valley, because we're all opinionated, pushy bastards. 

This is pretty much universal, from what I've seen and heard. If you listen to the stories women will tell you about men who got grabby, most of them will either tell you no one helped or if a guy did, that he caught shit for it.
Maybe your low crowd is populated by decent people?

Never did I say there was a difference in motivation (I just said empathy is not the same as living it) or ability to advance egalitarianism (you as a man have a louder voice than we do, which you ought to use to help get others to listen to us; we frame the debate and you help us carry it through because more people are going to take YOU seriously than they will us).

Agreed on the markets, though.

I can't do that.  I mean, I can and I will, but I can't be everywhere, and neither can anyone else.  You have to be loud yourself.  You've got to make them take you seriously.  It's been done before, in much rougher circumstances than this...the sufferagettes, etc.  Those are big boots to fill, but nobody said this shit was easy.

We're not asking that you be everywhere, but that you do what you can (which you already do). And we are loud already. We've been screaming ourselves hoarse for a long time. Society just says, "Oh, OF COURSE a woman would say things like that!" or "silly ladies!" or men (market 3, mostly, although market 2 sometimes does this a little) act like we're threatening their privilege when we ask to be treated the same as they are.

And I don't intend to harp on the subject, Garbo, but let's just turn that around.

No worries.

I'm 43 and sitting in a bar with my friends Roscoe (35) and Anthony (25).  Someone else walks into the bar, so we look at who entered (I sure as hell am).  It turns out to be a young lady.  I give a friendly smile, and turn back to my conversation.  She scoots for a corner table like I was about to attack her on the spot.

I don't know what's going through her head, but I'm wondering what the hell I did wrong.  I was just being polite.  I would have done the same exact thing if it had been a 60 year old man who walked in.

We don't know what's going through your head and we can't assume you're a safe man to be around. We are socialized to act like this, because if you were the kind of man to attack her (and I know you're not), she'd be blamed for a "lapse". This is another way the patriarchy and kyriarchy fuck you over, too, because our reactions aren't really your fault (or ours, exactly).

Another example, this one happened recently:

I'm walking out of Barnes & Noble, to my car in the parking lot.  A 50-ish Black man is about 20 feet ahead of me, dressed like a lawyer or a doctor on his day off.  He's carrying a bag of books in each hand.  As he walks toward his car, passes by a lady waiting in her SUV...Who hits all the door locks as he goes past the front of her vehicle.  It's fairly quiet in the parking lot, and even I can hear the sound, even though I'm a good 30 feet away.  I start laughing fit to split a gut.  The guy looks back at me and chuckles, with the "what can you say?" look on his face.  He then walks past her car, loads his books in the trunk, and departs.

Did she hit the locks because he was a man?  Or because he was a Black man?  I don't know (though in Oro Valley, I can make a pretty good guess), but I know what the guy was thinking, based on the look on his face. 

Black man. The "white womanhood myth" lingers in some ways, painting black men as rapists (remember, it wasn't all that long ago we were lynching black men for whistling at white women). If it were a white guy, she'd probably just have watched him carefully in her rear view mirror instead of slamming the locks.

Now, I'm not saying to stop being cautious.  I am NOT by any means saying there aren't a bunch of creepers out there.  What I AM saying is that caution is a good thing, but outright fear is something to be conquered.  99% of the time, the people you are worried about would be honestly puzzled as to why.

The other half of that is that, given a situation in which creepers are actually present, the other 1% of the time, a visible fear response is a really, really bad thing.  It's what the predator type is scanning for.  Replace the fear with anger.

Lastly, okay, so you're a good-looking younger woman in a bar.  You're getting the leer.  What do?

1.  Look him in the eye, snort derisively, go back to what you were doing.  The "snorting derisively" thing is the important bit, because you're acting dismissive, which puts you in the powerful position, which isn't what creepers are looking for.  He'll find someone else to hassle.

2.  If a situation becomes physical, or even seriously LOOKS like it's about to become physical, be the first to react.  Shout, don't scream (anger & threat posture, not fear response)...And advance, don't cringe.  Mace the piss out of the guy, if he actually attempts to touch you.  Or just glass the bastard¹.  Most crimes occur to people who A)  Look like a victim and B) Fail to react because they can't get it through their head that something is actually happening.  The jackass is kind of counting on that. 




¹  I suggest this one.  Even the smallest fist is credible if there's a rock in it.  A beer stein is even better.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BREAK THE BOTTLE OR GLASS FIRST UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT, or the ER nurse will be fishing bits of glass out of your hand for hours.

I'll keep that in mind when dealing with older men (since, again, dudes in my age bracket aren't the ones who make me anxious and I will get in the face of a guy my age who acts like that).

It isn't true in my part of the world either.  I have often seen men help women with flat tires, pick up items that have spilled, get high things in the grocery store, etc.  I've NEVER seen any of the, get berated.

Helping with stuff like that is not the same as telling a guy who's getting handsy with a scared-looking woman to fuck off at all. "YOU'RE MAKING US LOOK BAD!" is apparently a common response.

- Yes, I do need to buy some CS gas.

Bear spray.

Or a 316 stainless blunt spike.  Use it as a keychain.  It's the best friend a normally non-violent person can have in a bad spot.

I'll look into that.

[Juana]

This is actually relevant to the labels thing, because a label can also be the way you present yourself.

People tend to act either in a dominant or submissive way.  Submissive behavior says "I'm a victim".  Dominant behavior says "Find someone else to bother, asshole, or you'll wish you had."

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."


Dominant behavior:
Eye contact or dark glasses that make people feel like you're making eye contact in a negative way.
Aggressive smile and leaning forward while feeling threatened.
Hands are knuckles forward while striding, as opposed to walking.  Default hand position is a fist.
While seated, hands are on the table, knuckles up.
"What the fuck are YOU looking at?"

Funny part is, the label you wear affects YOU, too.  In the first case, you have fear.  In the second case, you don't, at least after doing this a while.

Eye contact + smiling in even a friendly way = permission to come pester you.

Those aggressive behaviors are what I do when harassed by men my age, but next time I have to deal with older men again, I'll keep that in mind.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Maybe your low crowd is populated by decent people?

No.  Decent people always to rotten shit to other people.  I wouldn't hang out with them.

Society just says, "Oh, OF COURSE a woman would say things like that!" or "silly ladies!"

Nobody ever said that about Angela Davis.

We don't know what's going through your head and we can't assume you're a safe man to be around. We are socialized to act like this, because if you were the kind of man to attack her (and I know you're not), she'd be blamed for a "lapse". This is another way the patriarchy and kyriarchy fuck you over, too, because our reactions aren't really your fault (or ours, exactly).

No argument whatsoever.

Black man. The "white womanhood myth" lingers in some ways, painting black men as rapists (remember, it wasn't all that long ago we were lynching black men for whistling at white women). If it were a white guy, she'd probably just have watched him carefully in her rear view mirror instead of slamming the locks.

Yeah.  I'm fairly convinced that she did it out of malice, not fear.

I'll keep that in mind when dealing with older men (since, again, dudes in my age bracket aren't the ones who make me anxious and I will get in the face of a guy my age who acts like that).

Interesting distinction.  You might want to drive that around inside your head for a while.  The younger guys are more CAPABLE of doing you harm. 

I'll look into that.

I can make you one, if you'd like.  They're perfectly legal to mail and to carry.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This is actually relevant to the labels thing, because a label can also be the way you present yourself.

People tend to act either in a dominant or submissive way.  Submissive behavior says "I'm a victim".  Dominant behavior says "Find someone else to bother, asshole, or you'll wish you had."

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."


Dominant behavior:
Eye contact or dark glasses that make people feel like you're making eye contact in a negative way.
Aggressive smile and leaning forward while feeling threatened.
Hands are knuckles forward while striding, as opposed to walking.  Default hand position is a fist.
While seated, hands are on the table, knuckles up.
"What the fuck are YOU looking at?"

Funny part is, the label you wear affects YOU, too.  In the first case, you have fear.  In the second case, you don't, at least after doing this a while.

Eye contact + smiling in even a friendly way = permission to come pester you.

Those aggressive behaviors are what I do when harassed by men my age, but next time I have to deal with older men again, I'll keep that in mind.

Wrong kind of eye contact.  Wrong kind of smile.  You have to smile like one of the Nigels.

[Juana]

Also, we're bred to be super polite (any time I don't act like what my old man thinks of as "lady-like behavior", he gets really pushy and aggressive with me. I'm getting better about telling him to fuck off, too, which is hard since he's been physically and emotionally abusive my entire life).

This is actually relevant to the labels thing, because a label can also be the way you present yourself.

People tend to act either in a dominant or submissive way.  Submissive behavior says "I'm a victim".  Dominant behavior says "Find someone else to bother, asshole, or you'll wish you had."

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."


Dominant behavior:
Eye contact or dark glasses that make people feel like you're making eye contact in a negative way.
Aggressive smile and leaning forward while feeling threatened.
Hands are knuckles forward while striding, as opposed to walking.  Default hand position is a fist.
While seated, hands are on the table, knuckles up.
"What the fuck are YOU looking at?"

Funny part is, the label you wear affects YOU, too.  In the first case, you have fear.  In the second case, you don't, at least after doing this a while.

Eye contact + smiling in even a friendly way = permission to come pester you.

Those aggressive behaviors are what I do when harassed by men my age, but next time I have to deal with older men again, I'll keep that in mind.

Wrong kind of eye contact.  Wrong kind of smile.  You have to smile like one of the Nigels.

Okay, point.

Maybe your low crowd is populated by decent people?

No.  Decent people always to rotten shit to other people.  I wouldn't hang out with them.

Not Decent People, but, y'know, people who have some sort of biped-ery.

Society just says, "Oh, OF COURSE a woman would say things like that!" or "silly ladies!"

Nobody ever said that about Angela Davis.

I assure you they did.

Black man. The "white womanhood myth" lingers in some ways, painting black men as rapists (remember, it wasn't all that long ago we were lynching black men for whistling at white women). If it were a white guy, she'd probably just have watched him carefully in her rear view mirror instead of slamming the locks.

Yeah.  I'm fairly convinced that she did it out of malice, not fear.

Mhm.

I'll keep that in mind when dealing with older men (since, again, dudes in my age bracket aren't the ones who make me anxious and I will get in the face of a guy my age who acts like that).

Interesting distinction.  You might want to drive that around inside your head for a while.  The younger guys are more CAPABLE of doing you harm.

Oh, I know. But again, they've never made me actually scared for my safety. They don't try to take the same liberties with me that I've had older men do (also, older men have yet more power than I do, while men my age are still seen as superior to me, but they're closer to my level).

I'll look into that.

I can make you one, if you'd like.  They're perfectly legal to mail and to carry.

I'd appreciate it.

[Juana]

whether is a serial rapist or just the office bully, they're not looking for a challenge, they're looking for a victim. Whether or not they can articulate how it works, most people speak fluent body-language. It's rooted in a much older set of neural pathways than verbal communication and is a lot more powerful because of that.

Learning the rules of assertive body language and then actually changing to using it will actually make you feel more confident. Your brain follows you're body's message. Stand up straight, shoulders back, head upright, look people in the eye. If you want to up the ante - move into their personal space, lean forward, maintain eye contact, smirk.

Of course if it gets to that stage it's a good idea to have some ass kicking skills to back that up 

I have that down pat in any situation but "just me and older men in a small, enclosed spaces".