LABELS - The Thread!

[P3nT4gR4m]

Wow. This was a spectacularly shitty way to prove a point. Bad, bad example. Sorry Roger. D:

Proved a point perfectly from where I'm sitting. Problem was it the opposing argument from the one you were trying to prove. Maybe us dumb fucks have a point worth considering after all?

[Juana]

Which was?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Which was?

That labels can be a bad thing?

[Juana]

Ugh. I seem to be fucking up every thread I touch because I'm eight shades of retard this week.


I'm gonna back out for a while, I think. Net, gimme a PM when the pic for the colab has been selected?

Which was?

That labels can be a bad thing?

I haven't gone through the LABELS- the thread! posts since I tried to go to sleep earlier, so maybe it's been eviscerated already, but label-lessness got us into the this situation in the first place, so I don't know how not using labels (particularly to talk about power inequalities) is going to be useful.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Try this:

Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:

- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)

Moving to a well-lit public space (-1 Wariness, -1 to anxiety)

- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)


Passed by a group of potential witnesses/ support if I get in trouble (-4 to anxiety)

-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)

They react to my presence. Good - this means they are biologically alive and conscious. This will help if I need their assitance for any reason (-2 to anxiety)

--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)

One of them is attracted to me. Too bad, I'm out of his league and he knows it but he makes a show in front of his friends as some pathetic attempt to save face. (+1 to ego)

- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)

Check reflection in door window - yup, I'm hawt!  (+2 to ego)

- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)

Bar is empty. Result -  I'm first in the queue!


- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)

Two doors leading in, I sit in the corner so I have an eye on both. All the glassware and possibly a baseball bat and/or shotgun behind the bar. If anything kicks off in this empty place then that's where I'm headed. Sitrep: Area secure. (-4 to anxiety)

- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)

Check bag - Can of mace! Something out the ordinary goes down I should have it covered

Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

Total:
-1 wariness
-11 anxiety
+3 ego

-- all I did was change the labels and swap proactive for paranoid

[P3nT4gR4m]

Something that's just occurred to me.

A new label to describe labels, if you will - "Bricks"

Bricks in the wall of your own personal BIP?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Wow. This was a spectacularly shitty way to prove a point. Bad, bad example. Sorry Roger. D:

But anyway, women spend their entire lives trying to stay safe (go find Pixie's comment string in OH NOEZ on the subject, since I have effectively proven myself to be neurotic). We're socialized to deal with Schrodinger's rapist (we have no idea who is and who is not, but we have to prevent him from doing it anyway).
That's not something men have to live with. You can empathize, but you don't actually live with a perpetual, low-level fear of rape.

No, but I have perpetual, low-level anxieties of my own.  The flavor is different, the effect is the same.

Neither set of fears means that there is a "practical difference" in our motivation or ability to advance eglatarianism, which is about the only thing that should matter in terms of the various discussions we've been having.

People fall into the following catagories, more or less:

1.  Elgatarians/feminists.
2.  Non-Eglatarians/feminists (usually because they have misconceptions about what this means_.
3.  Anti-eglatarians/feminists.

You already have group 1.  There is no need to "close the sale", they're already on your side.  A need to educate them or drive home "essential differences" is a losing strategy.

You can't reach group 3, at least not without disproportionate effort.  The most you can do is refuse to tolerate their bullshit.

Group 2 is your market.  "You need to reach them with a message that counters the lies of group 3.  No, eglatarians are not out to castrate you, dude."  "No, lady, being a feminist does not mean you can't dress up sexy for your husband or BF or whatever if that's what you want to do."  "No, your pastor is wrong...Read the Aprocrypha, particularly Ben & Ruth".  Marginalize "jokes" and yahoo behavior.

[Faust]

Something that's just occurred to me.

A new label to describe labels, if you will - "Bricks"

Bricks in the wall of your own personal BIP?

With the obvious allusion to Pink Floyd and the themes of separation between people who in turn become more and more remote from each other?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And I don't intend to harp on the subject, Garbo, but let's just turn that around.

I'm 43 and sitting in a bar with my friends Roscoe (35) and Anthony (25).  Someone else walks into the bar, so we look at who entered (I sure as hell am).  It turns out to be a young lady.  I give a friendly smile, and turn back to my conversation.  She scoots for a corner table like I was about to attack her on the spot.

I don't know what's going through her head, but I'm wondering what the hell I did wrong.  I was just being polite.  I would have done the same exact thing if it had been a 60 year old man who walked in.

Another example, this one happened recently:

I'm walking out of Barnes & Noble, to my car in the parking lot.  A 50-ish Black man is about 20 feet ahead of me, dressed like a lawyer or a doctor on his day off.  He's carrying a bag of books in each hand.  As he walks toward his car, passes by a lady waiting in her SUV...Who hits all the door locks as he goes past the front of her vehicle.  It's fairly quiet in the parking lot, and even I can hear the sound, even though I'm a good 30 feet away.  I start laughing fit to split a gut.  The guy looks back at me and chuckles, with the "what can you say?" look on his face.  He then walks past her car, loads his books in the trunk, and departs.

Did she hit the locks because he was a man?  Or because he was a Black man?  I don't know (though in Oro Valley, I can make a pretty good guess), but I know what the guy was thinking, based on the look on his face. 



Now, I'm not saying to stop being cautious.  I am NOT by any means saying there aren't a bunch of creepers out there.  What I AM saying is that caution is a good thing, but outright fear is something to be conquered.  99% of the time, the people you are worried about would be honestly puzzled as to why.

The other half of that is that, given a situation in which creepers are actually present, the other 1% of the time, a visible fear response is a really, really bad thing.  It's what the predator type is scanning for.  Replace the fear with anger.

Lastly, okay, so you're a good-looking younger woman in a bar.  You're getting the leer.  What do?

1.  Look him in the eye, snort derisively, go back to what you were doing.  The "snorting derisively" thing is the important bit, because you're acting dismissive, which puts you in the powerful position, which isn't what creepers are looking for.  He'll find someone else to hassle.

2.  If a situation becomes physical, or even seriously LOOKS like it's about to become physical, be the first to react.  Shout, don't scream (anger & threat posture, not fear response)...And advance, don't cringe.  Mace the piss out of the guy, if he actually attempts to touch you.  Or just glass the bastard¹.  Most crimes occur to people who A)  Look like a victim and B) Fail to react because they can't get it through their head that something is actually happening.  The jackass is kind of counting on that. 




¹  I suggest this one.  Even the smallest fist is credible if there's a rock in it.  A beer stein is even better.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BREAK THE BOTTLE OR GLASS FIRST UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT, or the ER nurse will be fishing bits of glass out of your hand for hours.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This is actually relevant to the labels thing, because a label can also be the way you present yourself.

People tend to act either in a dominant or submissive way.  Submissive behavior says "I'm a victim".  Dominant behavior says "Find someone else to bother, asshole, or you'll wish you had."

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."


Dominant behavior:
Eye contact or dark glasses that make people feel like you're making eye contact in a negative way.
Aggressive smile and leaning forward while feeling threatened.
Hands are knuckles forward while striding, as opposed to walking.  Default hand position is a fist.
While seated, hands are on the table, knuckles up.
"What the fuck are YOU looking at?"

Funny part is, the label you wear affects YOU, too.  In the first case, you have fear.  In the second case, you don't, at least after doing this a while.

[Sita]

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."

This describes me in any social situation ever.
I always thought it was a good indicator of wanting to be left alone, just in a more quiet way. Need to think on that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."

This describes me in any social situation ever.
I always thought it was a good indicator of wanting to be left alone, just in a more quiet way. Need to think on that.

It says "I want to be left alone, but I cannot enforce it.  I rely on your manners and good behavior."

In some situations, that's appropriate.  If there is danger present, your posture should instead say "Leave me the fuck alone or I'll ruin your night."

[Faust]

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."

This describes me in any social situation ever.
I always thought it was a good indicator of wanting to be left alone, just in a more quiet way. Need to think on that.

I'm like this a lot of the time, its something I consciously want to get rid of when I am at work, I think it is detrimental to how people perceive you and the work you do.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."

This describes me in any social situation ever.
I always thought it was a good indicator of wanting to be left alone, just in a more quiet way. Need to think on that.

I'm like this a lot of the time, its something I consciously want to get rid of when I am at work, I think it is detrimental to how people perceive you and the work you do.

It is.

[Sita]

Submissive behavior:
No eye contact.
Smiling in a concilatory manner or looking panicked and ducking head when feeling threatened, cringing.
Hands out of sight or brought in front of your stomach.
"Leave me alone, please."

This describes me in any social situation ever.
I always thought it was a good indicator of wanting to be left alone, just in a more quiet way. Need to think on that.

It says "I want to be left alone, but I cannot enforce it.  I rely on your manners and good behavior."

In some situations, that's appropriate.  If there is danger present, your posture should instead say "Leave me the fuck alone or I'll ruin your night."

That would probably tie into advice that I've been given to "fake it" even if I'm not feeling it (regarding confidence).
Dealing with social situations is taking a whole lot of work to get my head around.