LABELS - The Thread!

[The Johnny]

"We are brights, you are dim, as in dim-witted, this justifies us filtering anything you say as stupid."

[P3nT4gR4m]

Labels are unavoidable. It's how the human brain is wired to think. Without labels we'd be dribbling on our shoes and crossing our eyes constantly and we'd never learn anything.

However, labels are also a trap. Labels acquire connotations. When a label acquires enough connotations it becomes a pidgeonhole. It becomes a prison (for both the labeller and the labelee) It becomes a tool of oppression and/or a wedge between the subject and understanding.

This is true not only of labels we apply to our fellow primates but of all labels. Labels for inanimate objects. Labels for abstract systems. Labels for pretty much fucking anything.

Here's how it works. Once upon a time someone invented a label to describe these funky new people they'd discovered. These people were a different colour from the people who discovered them. "holy fuck!" said the bold explorers "these people are different from us. Quick, we need a label"

So they called them "Niggers"

At the point where they did this they had no preconceptions of what a "nigger" actually was. The term merely meant dark coloured people. It was later that the label took on a life of it's own. I probably don't have to explain what happened next but I'd like to point out that what did happen next was the pitfall of labels.

It eventually got so bad that most of the human race (even Richard Pryor, FFS) realised that it was getting us nowhere so, in a godlike display of making the same mistake over and over, we decided to replace the label with "people of colour"

Genius! Because of course it was the spelling that caused all the problems in the first place.

Prediction - 20 years from now calling someone a "person of colour" will be just as bad as calling them a nigger - you heard it here first.

So yeah, use labels, you can't help it but what you can help is to always look behind the labels. Don't get tied up in them. Work out for yourself when it's appropriate to apply them and when it's retarded.

If you don't then you're going to become a bigot and, because labels are so fucking insidious when they're working against you, you'll be utterly blind to this fact and everybody will be laughing at you behind your back on account of the "Asshole" label

[The Johnny]

Most labels can be used as euphemisms, as in, apparently neutral words that denote something, but in reality theres an underlying signification.

[Juana]

Of course.

Seriously, Roger, chill the fuck out. You're getting all wound up and putting words in our mouths.

Maybe.  Or maybe you don't realize the impact of the words that are actually coming out of your mouths.

These are sensitive issues. I have tried very hard to treat them as such (CMT aside, which I have already and repeatedly apologized for) with a disclaimer ("this is not aimed at you") for a good portion of my posts. Apparently I was not delicate enough. Sorry.

I'm not torqued up about the CMT thing.  What's got me riled is that I have explained my case, and I am still told that I can reject labels because of privilege, not because I may think differently or have different experiences than you or people you know.

It basically translates out to "You THINK you have an opinion, but you are running on nothing but false memetic consciousness, driven by memes you aren't capable of recognizing."  Part of that might be caused because people who don't know me very well assume that because I'm loud, I can't possibly be introspective.  They may assume that because I'm dense, that I am also DIM.

Again, it's been said several times that you CAN recognize those memes. You, specifically, have already done so at least once in the last couple days (and I, at least, never thought you were dim or incapable of being introspective).
It's really more like I think/thought that a lot of people haven't had to try to name an annoyingly persistent "what the fuck is this?" bar (and okay, I can surrender this specific argument within the labels discussion - there are people who have had to do that or rebuild their BiP who choose to reject labels still).

Second part is not something relevant or mentioned in this thread. I also still think the gentlemen here are really not getting the fine but valid differences between empathy/getting it and living it.

Please name a practical difference, other than some weird form of status.

It's not a damn status thing. Jesus.


Practical difference? Sure. You can't actually experience the fear and anxiety that comes with being a woman/female. Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:
- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)
- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)
-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)
--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)
- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)
- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)
- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)
- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)
Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

I waited for close to half an hour, out of their sight, and without even thinking about it I angled myself to watch the door, despite the fact that because A and the BF were coming from the freeway, they were much more likely to be coming from the other direction.
It's possible I was more anxious than necessary and I'm sure most of those men were harmless and not going to hurt me. But that's my gut reaction to lots of older men when I'm alone and in that type of situation (younger men would mean the anxiety was close to maybe six or seven)

Do you sympathize with this? I sure as fuck hope so. But you can't experience the anxiety and fear.

* from invading my space and trying to rub my shoulders, to "hey, be my sugar baby"/"you should wash my car in a bikini", to "pretty girls should expect to be stalked"/aggressive, possessive behavior/following me to my car (which is why I will harangue a male friend into walking with me if necessary)

[Juana]

I will come back and answer more of this thread in the actual morning.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Also, by fact and nomenclature, "I am" Mexican, but by fuck do i identify as one.

"16 de septiembre" is coming up when everyone celebrates their "Mexicanity"... yes, let us all REJOICE in being citizens in a nation full of corruption.

Also, im a man, as in, i have a dick, but whats the point of stating it unless someone is interested in sexy times with me? There is no point, other than if i engage in a conversation, devalue my argument with something among the lines "you just say that because privilege", a crude attribution of cause, when a female could very well be making the same argument and be attributed to "omg brainwash"; but if we know if they are female or male, it gives us a nice representation and data point to work around with, frame the debate, assume groupality allegiances, which ultimately sums up to not listening.

Exactly. As we know from arguing with people online.

And I like "I'm tall". I'm stealing that.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Of course.

Seriously, Roger, chill the fuck out. You're getting all wound up and putting words in our mouths.

Maybe.  Or maybe you don't realize the impact of the words that are actually coming out of your mouths.

These are sensitive issues. I have tried very hard to treat them as such (CMT aside, which I have already and repeatedly apologized for) with a disclaimer ("this is not aimed at you") for a good portion of my posts. Apparently I was not delicate enough. Sorry.

I'm not torqued up about the CMT thing.  What's got me riled is that I have explained my case, and I am still told that I can reject labels because of privilege, not because I may think differently or have different experiences than you or people you know.

It basically translates out to "You THINK you have an opinion, but you are running on nothing but false memetic consciousness, driven by memes you aren't capable of recognizing."  Part of that might be caused because people who don't know me very well assume that because I'm loud, I can't possibly be introspective.  They may assume that because I'm dense, that I am also DIM.

Again, it's been said several times that you CAN recognize those memes. You, specifically, have already done so at least once in the last couple days (and I, at least, never thought you were dim or incapable of being introspective).
It's really more like I think/thought that a lot of people haven't had to try to name an annoyingly persistent "what the fuck is this?" bar (and okay, I can surrender this specific argument within the labels discussion - there are people who have had to do that or rebuild their BiP who choose to reject labels still).

Second part is not something relevant or mentioned in this thread. I also still think the gentlemen here are really not getting the fine but valid differences between empathy/getting it and living it.

Please name a practical difference, other than some weird form of status.

It's not a damn status thing. Jesus.


Practical difference? Sure. You can't actually experience the fear and anxiety that comes with being a woman/female. Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:
- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)
- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)
-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)
--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)
- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)
- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)
- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)
- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+2 to anxiety)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)
Total:
2 wariness
15 anxiety
1 FML

I waited for close to half an hour, out of their sight, and without even thinking about it I angled myself to watch the door, despite the fact that because A and the BF were coming from the freeway, they were much more likely to be coming from the other direction.
It's possible I was more anxious than necessary and I'm sure most of those men were harmless and not going to hurt me. But that's my gut reaction to lots of older men when I'm alone and in that type of situation (younger men would mean the anxiety was close to maybe nine)

Do you sympathize with this? I sure as fuck hope so. But you can't experience the anxiety and fear.

Garbo, bars and creepers and oglers are annoying as fuck, but yeah, you were more anxious than necessary.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Practical difference? Sure. You can't actually experience the fear and anxiety that comes with being a woman/female. Here's my thought process from Wednesday night, when I beat my friend A and her boyfriend to the bar:
- by myself, female, and young (+1 wariness, +1 to anxiety)
- A bunch of older men are on the patio, which is between me and the actual bar. The youngest of these men was maybe 35. (Men between 35 and 60 are the ones who actually scare me, since the most disrespectful, degrading, and downright terrifying advances* I have ever endured have been from this age bracket, since men my age are either more subtle or don't make a move at all) (+4 to anxiety)
-- most of these men turn to look at me as I scan the situation (+2 to anxiety because, again, men in this age bracket are fucking scary)
--- there is a creeper already leering at me (+1 to wariness)
- *Checks clothing* *concludes nothing can be construed as "asking for it"* (+0 to anxiety)
- No one, especially another female, is in the actual bar (+2 to anxiety)
- The only back way out that won't set off an alarm is in the club attached to the bar, which I would have to go toward the front of the bar and therefore toward these men to get to. Said exit leads me to an alleyway, which is not a good thing. Bathrooms do not guarantee refuge in the event I need it. (+4 to anxiety)
- If I go in, by myself, and a guy follows me in and gets grabby (a possibility I have to account for and I have already dealt with a similar situation once), I have absolutely no backup (+1 to FML)
- If I go in by myself and a guy gets grabby, I'll be told "Why were you in a bar full of guys? Don't you know any better?" (+1 to FML)
Total:
2 wariness
14 anxiety
2 FML

I waited for close to half an hour, out of their sight, and without even thinking about it I angled myself to watch the door, despite the fact that because A and the BF were coming from the freeway, they were much more likely to be coming from the other direction.
It's possible I was more anxious than necessary and I'm sure most of those men were harmless and not going to hurt me. But that's my gut reaction to lots of older men when I'm alone and in that type of situation (younger men would mean the anxiety was close to maybe nine)

Do you sympathize with this? I sure as fuck hope so. But you can't experience the anxiety and fear.

* from invading my space and trying to rub my shoulders, to "hey, be my sugar baby"/"you should wash my car in a bikini", to "pretty girls should expect to be stalked"/aggressive, possessive behavior/following me to my car (which is why I will harangue a male friend into walking with me if necessary)

You do realise that practically all of this was in your head, right? And that's not dismissive, trust me I know all about "in your head" I was locked up and tortured by mine for years. Thing is, tho, it was your labels (pretty much exclusively) that made the whole thing so nerve wrackingly possible. A lot of other women, who don't share those particular labels which you hold so dear, would have walked in, ordered a beer and thought nothing of it.

[Juana]

Creepy, scary behavior from older men has happened to me for years (like, close to a decade). I don't think I'm excessively out of line when it comes to being anxious about them and outside of being around lots of older men by myself, I am not a particularly anxious person. Although I do admit some of it is probably overly paranoid since I do have some fucked up brain chemistry and I do tend to make plans to deal with the worst. It's sort of my nature.


I also realize this probably compromises some of my general validity. *shrug* I seem to be doing a lot of that lately

[P3nT4gR4m]

Creepy, scary behavior from older men has happened to me for years (like, close to a decade). I don't think I'm excessively out of line when it comes to being anxious about them and outside of being around lots of older men by myself, I am not a particularly anxious person. Although I do admit some of it is probably overly paranoid since I do have some fucked up brain chemistry and I do tend to make plans to deal with the worst. It's sort of my nature.


I also realize this probably compromises some of my general validity. *shrug* I seem to be doing a lot of that lately

Trust me, we're on the same page. I just happen to be the lucky one that got past it. PTSD is a fuck of a thing, tho. You lose all sense of proportion. Something that helped me was repeating, like a mantra, "most people don't get murdered"

Eventually you start believing it, which is cool cos, statistically speaking, it's true.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Creepy, scary behavior from older men has happened to me for years (like, close to a decade). I don't think I'm excessively out of line when it comes to being anxious about them and outside of being around lots of older men by myself, I am not a particularly anxious person. Although I do admit some of it is probably overly paranoid since I do have some fucked up brain chemistry and I do tend to make plans to deal with the worst. It's sort of my nature.


I also realize this probably compromises some of my general validity. *shrug* I seem to be doing a lot of that lately

Trust me, we're on the same page. I just happen to be the lucky one that got past it. PTSD is a fuck of a thing, tho. You lose all sense of proportion. Something that helped me was repeating, like a mantra, "most people don't get murdered"

Eventually you start believing it, which is cool cos, statistically speaking, it's true.

Yep.

And chances are slim to none of actually getting raped in there. Creeps can smell fear anyway, you don't want to project it. Fake being ballsy until it's real. Look 'em in the eye and tell 'em to fuck off if they get too close or say something wrong. Even if you're scared. Just fake it.

[Juana]

They're kind of my one lapse in that. Cat calling is rare for that reason (cat calling is not the same as the kind of shit I'm talking about, btw, and I spend more of my time around people my age anyway).
I'm aware of the likelihood of rape or whatever in bars being low, since I am perfectly aware of who most rapists are (men you already know). It's just a giant WHAT IF AND YOU DIDN'T PREPARE that looms.

I should also note it's men who are total strangers that freak me out. I would be comfortable hanging out with just EOT. Roger extended an invite to stay with at his place last spring; if I had been able to go, I would have accepted it and Freeky's presence had nothing to do with it because I'd be fine with it if she wasn't there (if I do ever get down there and it's still open, I'd accept it). The older guys here (except for BH, but that's more because he's disgusting) I would be fine with.

Also also, these experiences are part of why I, at this point, totally trust my first impression of a person. If you ding the creeper bells, I avoid the fuck out of you forever because I learned the hard way not to ignore it.

Creepy, scary behavior from older men has happened to me for years (like, close to a decade). I don't think I'm excessively out of line when it comes to being anxious about them and outside of being around lots of older men by myself, I am not a particularly anxious person. Although I do admit some of it is probably overly paranoid since I do have some fucked up brain chemistry and I do tend to make plans to deal with the worst. It's sort of my nature.


I also realize this probably compromises some of my general validity. *shrug* I seem to be doing a lot of that lately

Trust me, we're on the same page. I just happen to be the lucky one that got past it. PTSD is a fuck of a thing, tho. You lose all sense of proportion. Something that helped me was repeating, like a mantra, "most people don't get murdered"

Eventually you start believing it, which is cool cos, statistically speaking, it's true.

Murder is way not the same as American rape stats. And then there's socialization added on top of that. Just sayin'. I don't have PTSD nor is mine as bad as I'm getting the idea yours was. I think mine is more anxiety + urge to figure out how to deal with the worst case scenario (because again, it's strange older men who make me anxious. Dudes my age and dudes I know, I'm fine with, and "worst case scenario" extends to mundane shit like "what if I get a flat tired somewhere remote? I should probably learn how to fix that and make sure the car is stocked with appropriate items to deal with it. What if the kitchen catches on fire? I should buy more baking soda" and so on).

[The Johnny]

Garbo, maybe you are relying too much on profiling as a defensive measure in said example?

Maybe take some martial arts and self defense classes? Carry a knife? Try to go out with friends rather than alone?

And im not being dismissive of your feelings, for example, theres certain black markets around here where u can get good stuff for cheap, but its located in a sketchy and dangerous part of the city where the merchants have almost complete control of the locality and they are known for being criminals (where do you think the nice cheap things come from?)

So if i go there, it doesnt matter how accurate is my profiling early warning systems, truth of the matter is that if im targeted for assault and or robbery, im fucked, one simply tries to not get into that kind of positions.

Theres also a whole subculture here that people generally are wary of, "reguetoneros", for their symbolic ties and idealization of crime, and i think the prejudice is fair, just as one would be wary of "hell's angels" or whatever, but thats because they chose a label and a uniform that is signaling something to others.

You are in a sense prejudicing against a group of men within an age group due to bad experiences, that doesnt mean its all of them.

[Juana]

You're probably right. *shrug*

I do go out with friends, nearly always (I can think of one time in the last couple years I went out by myself, which was to see a shitty movie in the place near my house). Although not going places by yourself is something pretty much every woman/female does.

I also noted that I know most of them are harmless. Knee-jerk, is what it is.

[Juana]

Wow. This was a spectacularly shitty way to prove a point. Bad, bad example. Sorry Roger. D:

But anyway, women spend their entire lives trying to stay safe (go find Pixie's comment string in OH NOEZ on the subject, since I have effectively proven myself to be neurotic). We're socialized to deal with Schrodinger's rapist (we have no idea who is and who is not, but we have to prevent him from doing it anyway).
That's not something men have to live with. You can empathize, but you don't actually live with a perpetual, low-level fear of rape.