LABELS - The Thread!

[Juana]

And I don't intend to harp on the subject, Garbo, but let's just turn that around.

I'm 43 and sitting in a bar with my friends Roscoe (35) and Anthony (25).  Someone else walks into the bar, so we look at who entered (I sure as hell am).  It turns out to be a young lady.  I give a friendly smile, and turn back to my conversation.  She scoots for a corner table like I was about to attack her on the spot.

I don't know what's going through her head, but I'm wondering what the hell I did wrong.  I was just being polite.  I would have done the same exact thing if it had been a 60 year old man who walked in.

Another example, this one happened recently:

I'm walking out of Barnes & Noble, to my car in the parking lot.  A 50-ish Black man is about 20 feet ahead of me, dressed like a lawyer or a doctor on his day off.  He's carrying a bag of books in each hand.  As he walks toward his car, passes by a lady waiting in her SUV...Who hits all the door locks as he goes past the front of her vehicle.  It's fairly quiet in the parking lot, and even I can hear the sound, even though I'm a good 30 feet away.  I start laughing fit to split a gut.  The guy looks back at me and chuckles, with the "what can you say?" look on his face.  He then walks past her car, loads his books in the trunk, and departs.

Did she hit the locks because he was a man?  Or because he was a Black man?  I don't know (though in Oro Valley, I can make a pretty good guess), but I know what the guy was thinking, based on the look on his face. 



Now, I'm not saying to stop being cautious.  I am NOT by any means saying there aren't a bunch of creepers out there.  What I AM saying is that caution is a good thing, but outright fear is something to be conquered.  99% of the time, the people you are worried about would be honestly puzzled as to why.

The other half of that is that, given a situation in which creepers are actually present, the other 1% of the time, a visible fear response is a really, really bad thing.  It's what the predator type is scanning for.  Replace the fear with anger.

Lastly, okay, so you're a good-looking younger woman in a bar.  You're getting the leer.  What do?

1.  Look him in the eye, snort derisively, go back to what you were doing.  The "snorting derisively" thing is the important bit, because you're acting dismissive, which puts you in the powerful position, which isn't what creepers are looking for.  He'll find someone else to hassle.

2.  If a situation becomes physical, or even seriously LOOKS like it's about to become physical, be the first to react.  Shout, don't scream (anger & threat posture, not fear response)...And advance, don't cringe.  Mace the piss out of the guy, if he actually attempts to touch you.  Or just glass the bastard¹.  Most crimes occur to people who A)  Look like a victim and B) Fail to react because they can't get it through their head that something is actually happening.  The jackass is kind of counting on that.




¹  I suggest this one.  Even the smallest fist is credible if there's a rock in it.  A beer stein is even better.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BREAK THE BOTTLE OR GLASS FIRST UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT, or the ER nurse will be fishing bits of glass out of your hand for hours.

I can attest to the effectiveness of this I don't even KNOW how many times over. 

And I want to add that if he even LOOKS like wanting to come at you for fucking up his face (which is RARE, 99.99% of the time they're just shocked) OTHER PEOPLE IN THAT BAR, INCLUDING HIS OWN FRIENDS, WILL GRAB HIS ASS AND PULL HIM AWAY. BEFORE HE DOES ANYTHING.

There are reasons for this. Some people are decent and don't want to see a woman smacked around. Some people are assholes and won't want to see the creeper go to jail. Some people will be trying to make brownie points with the barender and/or owner, (alkies like being in with bartenders and bar owners, there's an occsional free drink in it) who doesn't want to risk getting shut down. Some people are tryingto be your knight in shining armor, which you may not want, but these types aren't often grabby.

I know a secret - you're usually safer in a bar than you are in your own home, if you live alone or the people you live with are away. The real danger of bars is people FOLLOWING you home.

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

[Juana]

I actually don't have a problem with labels provided the function is not to reduce a person to nothing but a label.

I think there are some legitimate reasons for labels;

To better know ones self. By coming across a label that fits me, it gives me a chance to understand myself better. This was my experience with the myerbriggs test, finding my type listed as INTP. Reading the description, it was the first time I actually understood that I wasnt socially incompetent. I'm sure that coming across a label that describes ones quirks or compulsions and provides a community of people who have experienced similar things, is helpful to many, including those with uncommon inclinations in gender or sexuality.

To form tribal connections. Either informally (a Discordian hanging with Discordians) or formally (official groups or associations) labelling oneself as part of a larger group as a social signifier.

To attract desired attention or behaviour. Easiest example is if I put straight, bi or gay on a dating profile.

To compress complex ideas. While my views on any issue may be complex, and not easily summed up by any label, I can call myself feminist, left-leaning, objectivist, deist our any other label if I want to quickly convey a set of complex or time intensive ideas in one word. This also givs these idea sets greater spreadability.

The key point for me is that labels can help if you use them, not if you let them use you, not if you become them.

We also can't help categorizing things. It's a human being thing; a fundamental survival trait. They key is to accept the categorizations, AND to think past them. Our brains instantly, automatically categorize absolutely everything that we experience. Sometimes we categorize wrong and have to adjust later. This happens constantly, thousands of millions of time every day; it's the only way our brains are free to think about things that are personally important. We are only having these conversations now because our brains are automatically categorizing everything going on in our immediate surroundings, and will automatically alert us if something falls into the category "potentially dangerous".

Everybody is already labeling everyone else all the time, and we can't stop. What we can do is consciously think past labels, when we have the time and opportunity to think. We can't make everyone else do so as well, but we can do what we're doing, which is talk about it to make it more likely that other people will pick up the idea (another thing  that human beings do naturally and automatically) and spread it around some more.

This, and what Pent said, are also largely arguments I made in the OP.

[Juana]

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, we're bred to be super polite (any time I don't act like what my old man thinks of as "lady-like behavior", he gets really pushy and aggressive with me. I'm getting better about telling him to fuck off, too, which is hard since he's been physically and emotionally abusive my entire life).

Go for it; you'll feel better.  My great-great aunt Connie was a Victorian "spinster" adventurer.  When she was older, though, she berated my mother with "you'll never be a lady" (which apparently involves hunting big game in Africa and India, lol).  Then, when my mother started working for a battered women's shelter, Aunt Connie told her off for "minding other folks' business".  My mother told her to take a flying fuck at rolling donut, and my Aunt Connie was tickled to death, and never gave her shit again.  Who knows how your old man will react?  In any case, you're not a child anymore, and it's time he understood that.

Not Decent People, but, y'know, people who have some sort of biped-ery.

Oh, yes.

I assure you they did.

Twice?   

Yeah.  I'm fairly convinced that she did it out of malice, not fear.

Mhm.

It's hard to describe Oro Valley to anyone who hasn't been there.

Oh, I know. But again, they've never made me actually scared for my safety. They don't try to take the same liberties with me that I've had older men do (also, older men have yet more power than I do, while men my age are still seen as superior to me, but they're closer to my level).

Point.  There's a level of squick there that's sort of hard to fathom.  Or would be, if  I didn't have a habit of screeching laughter at people my age trying to get into Club Vaudville.

I'd appreciate that.

Pretty sure I have the round stock kicking around.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

Christ.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

You're a hiker, you're in shape.  Consider taking some self-defense courses, if you haven't already.  Men are easy to deal with, in more than the obvious way.  Especially older guys.

And I don't think it's a trap to counsel preparedness or aggression-at-need.  It's not right that you should have to, but the world ain't right, if you catch my drift.  Deal with the world as it is, while you work toward the world as you'd like it to be.

[Freeky]

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

Christ.

Is it so surprising? I have found when it comes to people who really set my alarm bells off, 9/10 times it's someone over 30, particularly 35+. I thought being wary or outright afraid of older guys was a normal thing.

I am wondering if being bombarded with advertising that proclaim "Because you deserve it" and "you'll get hot young women" and "women need to be hunted, this thing is perfect bait" and more "You really do deserve it. Isn't it about time you grabbed it?"  doesn't have something to do with it.

Eta: it meaning older guys being more creepy.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

- Men rarely help women or females in need. In fact, they're much more likely to berate any man who does.

I have only anecdotal shit on my side, here, but that hasn't been true so far as I've seen.  I may be looking at anamolous data, or you may just live in the shittiest city in America.

Of course, I do hang out with a low crowd, and we do tend to be more likely to jump into this sort of thing that the scum up in Oro Valley, because we're all opinionated, pushy bastards.

I've had guys jump in a number of times. The ONE time nobody did, I was getting my ass stomped by a then-boyfriend (not at a bar, at a party with people who were supposedly "friends"), who another (male) friend later threw out of a window on general principle. That finally got him to leave. But strangers have always done it on the spot in a bar scenario. It usually went like this:

Asshole walks up and starts talking. Grabs a tit. I smack him in the mouth with a bottle. He looks stunned for a minute, realizes I broke his tooth, then gets outraged and starts to come at me. Five or so other guys grab his ass. He gets thrown out, everybody laughs at what I did to him and I get more free drinks than I know what to do with. 

(ETA: Oops, repeated myself. Catching up...  )

I'm not one of those teeny little cutie pie women that guys instantly want to protect, BTW. I'm 5'8". I couldn't get "cutie pie" to work if I'd been raised by Betty Boop. But guys generally don't let me get my ass stomped.

Y'know, I hate to break it to you, but the real danger in bars is women. Some women will take ANY interaction with their husbands or boyfriends (including walking past them and saying "excuse me") as you making advances and they'll run up behind you if you're not paying attention and grab your hair and try to suckerpunch you. The bottle trick usually stops them in their tracks, though. You won't need any help. 

As far as people following you to your car, that's OUTSIDE the bar. Get somebody to escort you or call a cab. As long as you're IN the bar, it's safe.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

Christ.

Is it so surprising? I have found when it comes to people who really set my alarm bells off, 9/10 times it's someone over 30, particularly 35+. I thought being wary or outright afraid of older guys was a normal thing.

I am wondering if being bombarded with advertising that proclaim "Because you deserve it" and "you'll get hot young women" and "women need to be hunted, this thing is perfect bait" and more "You really do deserve it. Isn't it about time you grabbed it?"  doesn't have something to do with it.

No, I don't think it's weird.

What I find weird is the response.  You know me, I have a very limited number of responses to shit like that.  To me, the appropriate response to something like that happening would be bearspray + the engineer boot fandango.  Or simply to blow a few holes in him.

It's hard for me to understand people who don't resort to violence when violence is clearly appropriate.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

You're a hiker, you're in shape.  Consider taking some self-defense courses, if you haven't already.  Men are easy to deal with, in more than the obvious way.  Especially older guys.

And I don't think it's a trap to counsel preparedness or aggression-at-need.  It's not right that you should have to, but the world ain't right, if you catch my drift.  Deal with the world as it is, while you work toward the world as you'd like it to be.

A sad but true point. I don't think the 'answer' is for women to learn to be tough. The 'answer' is for human society to evolve past this kind of shit. However, its not going to happen overnight, probably not even in our lifetime. Maybe it will improve some, but not to the point that women won't ever get raped... some men are useless pieces of shit. I don't think there's anything wrong with women learning to take control of a situation and learning how to bust a guy in the face if necessary. It's not the answer, but its a stopgap until we get to the answer.

At any rate, I think this is a tangent from the point on labels. Labeling "risk/danger" is part of human survival... I don't think its the same as labeling sexual preference, gender role, religion, skin color, job description etc.

[Juana]

Also, we're bred to be super polite (any time I don't act like what my old man thinks of as "lady-like behavior", he gets really pushy and aggressive with me. I'm getting better about telling him to fuck off, too, which is hard since he's been physically and emotionally abusive my entire life).

Go for it; you'll feel better.  My great-great aunt Connie was a Victorian "spinster" adventurer.  When she was older, though, she berated my mother with "you'll never be a lady" (which apparently involves hunting big game in Africa and India, lol).  Then, when my mother started working for a battered women's shelter, Aunt Connie told her off for "minding other folks' business".  My mother told her to take a flying fuck at rolling donut, and my Aunt Connie was tickled to death, and never gave her shit again.  Who knows how your old man will react?  In any case, you're not a child anymore, and it's time he understood that.

Your aunt sounds like she was a badass.
There's no "deviating from the social norms" pattern with him like there sounds like there was with her.
I don't let him treat me like a kid. He doesn't get to monopolize on my time (which he tries to), I tell him no when he tries to bully me into moving across the country with him and re-direct the conversation, and it's not like his "ACT LIKE A LADY NOT AN ITALIAN BOY" has ever done anything, even when I lived with him.

I assure you they did.

Twice?   

The same person twice? Probably not.

Yeah.  I'm fairly convinced that she did it out of malice, not fear.

Mhm.

It's hard to describe Oro Valley to anyone who hasn't been there.

I bet.

Oh, I know. But again, they've never made me actually scared for my safety. They don't try to take the same liberties with me that I've had older men do (also, older men have yet more power than I do, while men my age are still seen as superior to me, but they're closer to my level).

Point.  There's a level of squick there that's sort of hard to fathom.  Or would be, if  I didn't have a habit of screeching laughter at people my age trying to get into Club Vaudville.

Yeah.

I'd appreciate that.

Pretty sure I have the round stock kicking around.

Cool. Still got my address?

When you've actually had bad shit happen to you, it does increase your anxiety when you're in a similar situation. Yeah, it might be "in your head" but it's still real, and still a symptom of a fucked-up society in which bad shit can easily happen to a woman just because she's female, and other people will sit around and watch it happen and then blame you for it afterward.

There is no doubt about the truth of this. 

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

Well, we DO live in The World As It Is, not The World We Wish We Had.  So while we should work towards the world we wish we had, it is still important to remain sane and alive in the world we actually have at the moment.

You can't live in fear all the time and remain sane.  You can't rely on safety gained merely by demanding it.

What is required is individual strength.  Strength of character, strength of nerve, and the strength with which to defend yourself to the best of your ability, should it become necessary.  One of society's most insidious labels is the "woman in need of a defender", when the woman should look to her own defense FIRST, before considering the possibility of some "white knight" coming to the rescue.  Women CAN do this, because women are strong as fuck when they're not conditioned out of it, despite the difference in body mass and upper body strength between the average male & female.

Carry a rock in your fist, figuratively or literally, and you've solved The Fear and the issue of physical safety.

I'm not an expert on anthropology or anything, but I think you'll find that strong people will make the world we wish we had.

Uh huh, and I try to deal with the WAII. But not talking about how to change society so men of any age don't think it's okay to get grabby or possessive or aggressive or scare the shit out of women doesn't do anything. All it is is, "here, change your behavior so they won't think you're prey," without telling men not to treat us prey and enforcing it if necessary. It's not all that different than victim blaming to some extent, I think, because not displaying those behaviors, in some ways, excuses men who act like that because I didn't act the way I should have to ward that fucker off. "You didn't get in his face enough when he got grabby, that's why he did x to you."
At least, that's kind of how it's coming off to me.

White knights are not welcome by anyone.

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

You're a hiker, you're in shape.  Consider taking some self-defense courses, if you haven't already.  Men are easy to deal with, in more than the obvious way.  Especially older guys.

And I don't think it's a trap to counsel preparedness or aggression-at-need.  It's not right that you should have to, but the world ain't right, if you catch my drift.  Deal with the world as it is, while you work toward the world as you'd like it to be.

Yeah, I've been trying to find something that isn't a McDojo for a while.
It can become a trap, which I discussed above.

I've had older men follow me to my car. This is one of the reasons why the scared monkey takes over when dealing with them.

Christ.

Is it so surprising? I have found when it comes to people who really set my alarm bells off, 9/10 times it's someone over 30, particularly 35+. I thought being wary or outright afraid of older guys was a normal thing.

I am wondering if being bombarded with advertising that proclaim "Because you deserve it" and "you'll get hot young women" and "women need to be hunted, this thing is perfect bait" and more "You really do deserve it. Isn't it about time you grabbed it?"  doesn't have something to do with it.

No, I don't think it's weird.

What I find weird is the response.  You know me, I have a very limited number of responses to shit like that.  To me, the appropriate response to something like that happening would be bearspray + the engineer boot fandango.  Or simply to blow a few holes in him.

It's hard for me to understand people who don't resort to violence when violence is clearly appropriate.

You are ALLOWED to have that response. I have to work myself out of +20 years of "girls don't hit back!" and the reminents of a fairly crappy childhood. I'm still working on that.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

You do realize that what this is, EXACTLY what it is, is a discussion of how the woman should change her behavior and thinking so she's less scared, rather then a discussion of how society should change so that women have less reason to be scared, right?

THIS. This is a trap I think men who do want to help (like Pent, because I think he has good intentions and does genuinely want to help), sometimes fall into. "Here, let me give you a list of behaviors you need to change in order to be safe" without talking about why a fear is valid and how to change society so the scared monkey has fewer reasons to come out.


And actually, re: getting aggressive with creepy old men, I feel like it's going to escalate the situation beyond something I can control and I will end up being hurt.

You're a hiker, you're in shape.  Consider taking some self-defense courses, if you haven't already.  Men are easy to deal with, in more than the obvious way.  Especially older guys.

And I don't think it's a trap to counsel preparedness or aggression-at-need.  It's not right that you should have to, but the world ain't right, if you catch my drift.  Deal with the world as it is, while you work toward the world as you'd like it to be.

A sad but true point. I don't think the 'answer' is for women to learn to be tough. The 'answer' is for human society to evolve past this kind of shit. However, its not going to happen overnight, probably not even in our lifetime. Maybe it will improve some, but not to the point that women won't ever get raped... some men are useless pieces of shit. I don't think there's anything wrong with women learning to take control of a situation and learning how to bust a guy in the face if necessary. It's not the answer, but its a stopgap until we get to the answer.

At any rate, I think this is a tangent from the point on labels. Labeling "risk/danger" is part of human survival... I don't think its the same as labeling sexual preference, gender role, religion, skin color, job description etc.

I'm not going to operate on what "should" happen, or depend on a bunch of squicky old creepers to evolve. Maybe I "shouldn't" have to think a certain way, but sitting down and talking about my feelings and having somebody say "yes, your anxiety is valid" or whatever doesn't DO anything in the outside world. Bottles and dogs and baseball bats and CS gas and a loud mouth DO.

There is NO satisfaction like watching some old married fuck run like a rabbit when you put what he's trying to do on blast. 

Letting people get away with shit like this FUCKS YOU UP. Better to get mad NOW then let it build up. Some people let a TON of this shit build up, and they flip. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to Aileen Wuornos.   

[Freeky]

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

That's something that can come up when they get you alone. If by some chance I got cornered in some isolated place by somebody I had reason to think would kill me and probably get away with it, it's another ballgame. In a bar, or any place where there's witnesses, we have an edge.

[Juana]

No, it doesn't make the outside world different, but validating my feelings makes responding easier. Otherwise, it's hard to shake the feeling that my response will be out of proportion. *shrug*

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

This. And I am not a small person, but scared monkey doesn't calculate that very well.

FUCKING PHONE. HOUSE PHONE RANG AND BUMPED THE INTERNET JUST AS I POSTED.


Short form: violence doesn't come easy to women, since we're trained to not hit ever, never be aggressive. Men, especially older men gone to seed, are stronger and have a lot more weight. The terror there is if the guy is serious, there is nothing we can do to stop it coming. Nothing.

And then I had an example of tough as nails torch being so manipulated by shayne that she couldn't have fended him off with an army behind her.

That's something that can come up when they get you alone. If by some chance I got cornered in some isolated place by somebody I had reason to think would kill me and probably get away with it, it's another ballgame. In a bar, or any place where there's witnesses, we have an edge.

I was in a situation where it was ALL older men, remember. The side walk was empty (and this bar is tucked away off the main street, which is part of why I like it), bartender was an older dude, too, etc.