Egalitarianism

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What appears to me to be the proper friction in all these threads is the lack of an acknowledgement that the signal is independent from the receiver. If the signal offends you, that's YOUR OFFENSE. The signal is not offensive, the sender is not offending you, you have offense...that's it. Discordianism, to my mind, places a clear distinction between what's out there and how each us takes what's out there.

Egalitarianism to me means, quite simply, I'm responsible for what I put out, I'm responsible for how I receive what's put out, I'm responsible for my mind for my self, and fuck the rest. I respect others to be quite the same and if they tell me they think I'm being an asshole I weigh it and say, "Good point, I'll stop," or "Fuck off."

Does that mean inequality's all in our head? Fuck no. It simply means that inequality's not going to be remedied by toeing any lines. It's only going to be remedied when each all every one of us does what the fuck we want...and when that is the whole of the law.

[Faust]

This isn't so much about the content, but the user audience. Before the handover from Lauren the site was completely not work safe, offensive, with a lot of stuff that would upset the current audience.
It's a tradeoff between complete posting liberty and having a wider audience, we're no longer using that model. I haven't explicitly seen any rape jokes here but they don't really mesh.

The initial mission plan after the handover was complete posting liberty as long as what is read is worksafe and legal. As time has gone by it's become more complex with some other rules added.

We would rather the site remain self policing, if someone makes a rape joke for example they should be called on it by others, preferrably not mods, its not something we should have a rule against. For more blatently shocking stuff that could get people into trouble we will intervene but we would rather not have to.

I was using rape jokes as an example, I wasn't complaining about people making rape jokes at the expense of the victim on peedee.

it's the reactions that I'm making the point on,  because by and large it has been the same kind of response I get from a lot of people when in IRL I make the point about rape jokes when we were talking about gendered insults. I was trying to draw a parallel.

Am I really being so vague that what I am trying to say is unclear? it didn't seem so in the Reddit Rapist thread.


Oh, and I've just rephrased my point for the 100th time.

Fuck this shit, it seems pretty futile.

Sorry if I misunderstood,
I think I get it, the focus on the reactions people give when confronted on as you called them gendered insults, most people automatically get on the defensive. The argument they make is often as you said self sensorship and the distain for it.

I'm I getting closer now?

Pretty much, but where it falls down is that self-censorship isn't really censorship, it's just thinking before you open your fat gob on whether what you are going to say will make you seem like an asshole.

I buy that. Aside from gender insults the only circumstance where it would be different is when you want to seem like an asshole, with people you want to offend.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Pretty much, but where it falls down is that self-censorship isn't really censorship, it's just thinking before you open your fat gob on whether what you are going to say will make you seem like an asshole.

Usually it's pretty straightforward - I'll use a word, because it's one that I use regularly and someone will ask me not to cos it bugs them. Will I use it again? Depends how they ask. If they're polite about it, and put it to me as a request then, yeah I can respect that. I'll try to stop saying it while I'm around them. If they get all condescendy and lectury and go off on some hobby horse about how I'm what's wrong with the world then it's middle finger time.

THAT-THAT-THAT-THAT!!!!

Tell me you're offended by something I've said and I'm like "hell, at least you're taking responsibility for the offense." Tell me that I'm being offensive and I'll generally correct you by showing you exactly what me being offensive looks like. It's a little knee-jerk, but then again, FUCK YOU!

[East Coast Hustle]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

Yes. I feel pretty hopeless at this point. No matter what I write, it gets glossed over or ignored and it keeps coming back to the same bullshit privilege and entitlement, and the men who DO get what we're saying don't seem very willing to speak up, and the whole situation, being that this is the response from some of the most intelligent. forward-thinking, and enlightened men I know, makes me doubtful that gender equality will ever be possible. It makes me feel sad and tired, and wonder if this is perhaps just not the place for me. It's one thing when I toughen up and take it like a man, but it certainly turns into something else when I start talking about being a woman and the struggle for egalitarianism.

[The Johnny]

Well, im not about to dig thru 50 pages of drama and carefully citate people to make a point that will likely get ignored or provoke more anger, when im barely keeping up with reading it.

My reaction mostly to all of this is dissapointment and anger that nothing can be discussed without people jumping at each other's throats because someone else said something offensive.

And for the record, i kind of see both sides points and think they are valid, but god, both sides are acting so cutthroat and dismissive that its impossible to uphold civility.

[Salty]

Well, im not about to dig thru 50 pages of drama and carefully citate people to make a point that will likely get ignored or provoke more anger, when im barely keeping up with reading it.

My reaction mostly to all of this is dissapointment and anger that nothing can be discussed without people jumping at each other's throats because someone else said something offensive.

And for the record, i kind of see both sides points and think they are valid, but god, both sides are acting so cutthroat and dismissive that its impossible to uphold civility.

I have read most of it and I agree with this. There's a lot of butthurt all around. Which is funny because A) SRSLY YOU GUISE? and B) Everyone using the term "butthurt" in context with a lot of what has been said is just fucking lolleriffic. 

I was kind of upset, but now it's just sort of amusing. Where do you think we are headed with this? Has no one noticed the irony of how this discussion has broken down? Why do you suppose that is?

Anyhow, I didn't get overly involved because it looked to be one of the Verboten Subjects in the making, just cut along new lines. Now I have little doubt. Which is a shame because this was one of the most interesting stuff Ive read here and I've read a lot. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

For my own part, the whole point of the discussion about words, what they mean, and how they came to be that way wasn't about "don't use those words" but about THINKING about how and why our society chooses pejoratives. Because the more you understand about a system, the better you can hack it. Am I wrong?

[East Coast Hustle]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

For my own part, the whole point of the discussion about words, what they mean, and how they came to be that way wasn't about "don't use those words" but about THINKING about how and why our society chooses pejoratives. Because the more you understand about a system, the better you can hack it. Am I wrong?

No, I would absolutely agree with that. And I do understand what people are saying in regards to how language is shaped and in turn shapes our thoughts, but it seemed to degenerate into a whole bunch of "THIS IS HOW YOU NEED TO ACT AND TALK AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE AND GO ALONG YOU'RE PROBABLY SCUM AND DEFINITELY PART OF THE PROBLEM" and I just can't get down with that. And I think that, like it or not, there is a huge difference between the word "cunt" (or "pussy") as commonly used in slang and words like "nigger" and "fag" (which, to answer Garbo's question in another thread, I don't throw around as slang or obscenities), primarily in that the former have been part of the lexicon for so long that they've taken on meanings and contexts which, in my experience (and I know anecdotal != evidence) are generally not intended as being anti-woman, though I'm not disputing the original sentiment behind them. There is no context in which "nigger" is anything other than a racial slur.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

For my own part, the whole point of the discussion about words, what they mean, and how they came to be that way wasn't about "don't use those words" but about THINKING about how and why our society chooses pejoratives. Because the more you understand about a system, the better you can hack it. Am I wrong?

No, I would absolutely agree with that. And I do understand what people are saying in regards to how language is shaped and in turn shapes our thoughts, but it seemed to degenerate into a whole bunch of "THIS IS HOW YOU NEED TO ACT AND TALK AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE AND GO ALONG YOU'RE PROBABLY SCUM AND DEFINITELY PART OF THE PROBLEM" and I just can't get down with that. And I think that, like it or not, there is a huge difference between the word "cunt" (or "pussy") as commonly used in slang and words like "nigger" and "fag" (which, to answer Garbo's question in another thread, I don't throw around as slang or obscenities), primarily in that the former have been part of the lexicon for so long that they've taken on meanings and contexts which, in my experience (and I know anecdotal != evidence) are generally not intended as being anti-woman, though I'm not disputing the original sentiment behind them. There is no context in which "nigger" is anything other than a racial slur.

I agree, and unfortunately I feel like it came down along gender lines, and that regardless of what I actually say my posts are being lumped in with posts from other people who fall on "my" side of the line. Despite the fact that I agreed with some, disagreed with some, and pretty much had my own thing to say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And the whole blow up about "DON'T TELL ME I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WOMAN" was just, frankly, FUCKING RETARDED.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

And the whole blow up about "DON'T TELL ME I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WOMAN" was just, frankly, FUCKING RETARDED.

Needs moar machine to change people into women, POC, a different sexual orientation, for a year, then I'll buy the argument...

[Cain]

I suppose it's a good thing Doctor's Without Borders doesn't actually need my money, because, at this rate, the week won't even be over and I'll have won my bet.

[Juana]

I want to point out how retarded this thread is, but somebody will probably point out that it's offensive to the mentally disabled to do so.

Seriously, though, this whole round of butthurt via getting hung up on words and terms is pretty stupid and useless. If anybody thinks that getting rid of the word "cunt" as a pejorative is an important step in advancing feminism, I suggest they study the corollary.

Hardly anybody uses the word "nigger" (note that I am making a distinction between "nigger" and "nigga" to avoid the whole idiotic 'BUT BLACK PEOPLE USE IT ALL THE TIME' line that will inevitably get trotted out and has no bearing on the context of this discussion), and yet, racism....it's still alive and well and incredibly insidious and pervasive in our society, no?

See, the thing is, changing the language won't un-create assholes but it will alienate people (like me) who would otherwise be allies to your cause but find that whole idea both repugnant and ridiculous. So to me, it makes more sense to focus on changing or removing the assholes.

For my own part, the whole point of the discussion about words, what they mean, and how they came to be that way wasn't about "don't use those words" but about THINKING about how and why our society chooses pejoratives. Because the more you understand about a system, the better you can hack it. Am I wrong?

No, I would absolutely agree with that. And I do understand what people are saying in regards to how language is shaped and in turn shapes our thoughts, but it seemed to degenerate into a whole bunch of "THIS IS HOW YOU NEED TO ACT AND TALK AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE AND GO ALONG YOU'RE PROBABLY SCUM AND DEFINITELY PART OF THE PROBLEM" and I just can't get down with that. And I think that, like it or not, there is a huge difference between the word "cunt" (or "pussy") as commonly used in slang and words like "nigger" and "fag" (which, to answer Garbo's question in another thread, I don't throw around as slang or obscenities), primarily in that the former have been part of the lexicon for so long that they've taken on meanings and contexts which, in my experience (and I know anecdotal != evidence) are generally not intended as being anti-woman, though I'm not disputing the original sentiment behind them. There is no context in which "nigger" is anything other than a racial slur.

I sure as fuck never said any of that, ECH. I specified like a million times that I want people to think about the words they use and that's it. If someone keeps using pussy and cunt as pejoratives (because I think they are), whatever. Your rating on the douche-o-meter is going to be higher and I'm gonna side eye the fuck out of you when you say that shit but I'm not cool with making people change the words they use. I don't think you can and trying is only going to result in resentment that ASKING someone to think about their words is less likely to generate.
(although, ahaha, as this thread has proven, it's certainly going to generate a lot of resentment in some quarters anyway)

I'm not getting into the language debate again, as I have already extensively stated my opinion.

Well, im not about to dig thru 50 pages of drama and carefully citate people to make a point that will likely get ignored or provoke more anger, when im barely keeping up with reading it.

My reaction mostly to all of this is dissapointment and anger that nothing can be discussed without people jumping at each other's throats because someone else said something offensive.

And for the record, i kind of see both sides points and think they are valid, but god, both sides are acting so cutthroat and dismissive that its impossible to uphold civility.

I have read most of it and I agree with this. There's a lot of butthurt all around. Which is funny because A) SRSLY YOU GUISE? and B) Everyone using the term "butthurt" in context with a lot of what has been said is just fucking lolleriffic.

I was kind of upset, but now it's just sort of amusing. Where do you think we are headed with this? Has no one noticed the irony of how this discussion has broken down? Why do you suppose that is?

Anyhow, I didn't get overly involved because it looked to be one of the Verboten Subjects in the making, just cut along new lines. Now I have little doubt. Which is a shame because this was one of the most interesting stuff Ive read here and I've read a lot.

Mhm. If this turns into a drugs-style topic, I'm gonna be sad. There are some very fine minds here, whose opinions I'm interested in. But if they can't put the monkey in the backseat instead of letting the fucker drive the car, then there's no point, because there's only going to be screeching and/or talking to people who are already on the same page I am.

[Juana]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

Yes. I feel pretty hopeless at this point. No matter what I write, it gets glossed over or ignored and it keeps coming back to the same bullshit privilege and entitlement, and the men who DO get what we're saying don't seem very willing to speak up, and the whole situation, being that this is the response from some of the most intelligent. forward-thinking, and enlightened men I know, makes me doubtful that gender equality will ever be possible. It makes me feel sad and tired, and wonder if this is perhaps just not the place for me. It's one thing when I toughen up and take it like a man, but it certainly turns into something else when I start talking about being a woman and the struggle for egalitarianism.

I think I'm gonna stick around anyway, if PD turns out not to be able or willing to talk about this sort of thing, but the board'll be poorer for it.