Nothing to do with anything.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

I think I'd like to take a stab at that.

Your friends are important.  Your beliefs are important.  They are, however, important in entirely separate catagories.

Or they should be.  Now your beliefs are more important than your friends, through an artificial blending of the catagories.  This is one definition of fanaticism.

And if that's the price of admission, I'm not interested.  I can be a feminist on my own, without anyone else's rule sets.  If that means that I somehow "bring out your inner RHWN" like it does with P3nt, then that's a problem in YOUR head, not mine.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I love the idea of The Ism as a metaphor, because it is often true of the people who are into a cause, but this discussion is kind of morphing into "if the word has the suffix -ism, it's bad feedback and nothing good can come of it."

Shit, some words in this thread got made up to have an -ism suffix just to prove a point.  I feel like I should be hitting some of you in the head with a barstool.

The evidence so far has indicated that the suffix changes the belief.  Or, perhaps, a better way of saying it is that when you've stopped thinking about what something is, and you KNOW what it is, it gains the suffix, and you can use it to bludgeon your friends to death.

As soon as you think you have something all sussed out, a little bit of you turns into an asshole. This is necessary. As is the slap in the face that should follow immediately after.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I love the idea of The Ism as a metaphor, because it is often true of the people who are into a cause, but this discussion is kind of morphing into "if the word has the suffix -ism, it's bad feedback and nothing good can come of it."

Shit, some words in this thread got made up to have an -ism suffix just to prove a point.  I feel like I should be hitting some of you in the head with a barstool.

The evidence so far has indicated that the suffix changes the belief.  Or, perhaps, a better way of saying it is that when you've stopped thinking about what something is, and you KNOW what it is, it gains the suffix, and you can use it to bludgeon your friends to death.

As soon as you think you have something all sussed out, a little bit of you turns into an asshole. This is necessary. As is the slap in the face that should follow immediately after.

Unfortunately, by then, you have a terminal case of God On Your Side, and the slap is taken as a need for jihad.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

Hot damn.

[AFK]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

I can get behind this.

[Juana]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

I think I'd like to take a stab at that.

Your friends are important.  Your beliefs are important.  They are, however, important in entirely separate catagories.

Or they should be.  Now your beliefs are more important than your friends, through an artificial blending of the catagories.  This is one definition of fanaticism.

And if that's the price of admission, I'm not interested.  I can be a feminist on my own, without anyone else's rule sets.  If that means that I somehow "bring out your inner RHWN" like it does with P3nt, then that's a problem in YOUR head, not mine.

No, that's just with Pent. I occasionally get frustrated with you, but you at least don't feel the need to repeatedly tell me how much you don't care, nanny-nanny-boo-boo, about issues, simply because they don't affect you (that's how you come off, Pent, at least to me).

I tend to think it should be a case-by-case basis, depending on the belief, on whether someone is more important than a belief. Your friends should be able to make you question your beliefs, because people who can get you to examine them are very, very valuable, but there are beliefs (equality, etc.) that should supersede a shitty person who is unwilling to examine their own beliefs when you encourage them to question them.

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

I can agree with most of that. But there are behaviors and beliefs (unless you're defining that differently than "ideas that make up some of your BiP bars") that even Feminiasm requires, yes? Not tolerating asshole bullshit, being willing to examine how the system benefits you, even when it gets ugly, and adjusting your behavior and perceptions as necessary, etc.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

Fucking fucking FUCK YES!!!

And it's a cookie cutter template to describe most isms I've come across over the years. I learned a long time ago to try and keep my personal stash manageable. Manageable, for me at least, is around zero or below

[LMNO]

Would someone who encourages Feminasm refer to themselves as a Feminast?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Would someone who encourages Feminasm refer to themselves as a Feminast?

All of a sudden I like where this thread is going.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

I can agree with most of that. But there are behaviors and beliefs (unless you're defining that differently than "ideas that make up some of your BiP bars") that even Feminiasm requires, yes? Not tolerating asshole bullshit, being willing to examine how the system benefits you, even when it gets ugly, and adjusting your behavior and perceptions as necessary, etc.

I think that's the problem. Telling me which specific beliefs and behaviors I need to have is counterproductive even if you're right about them. It isn't that I disagree with what you'd have me do, it's that it's important to me that I arrive at that point and do those things without you needing to tell me to. That doesn't mean we can't have the discussion, because if nobody brings these things up, nobody's going to learn about them or act on them, but it's not going to help if every time my ideas don't reach as far as yours, or my actions don't measure up in some way with what you would like to see, I am met with "OMGPRIVILEGESEXISM." There has to be a recognition for every hand pushing this wreck off the highway, no matter how slight the pressure, as long as it isn't trying to pull the wrong way.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, that's just with Pent. I occasionally get frustrated with you, but you at least don't feel the need to repeatedly tell me how much you don't care, nanny-nanny-boo-boo, about issues, simply because they don't affect you (that's how you come off, Pent, at least to me).

You didn't.  Nigel did.  At the very least, this subject has cost me the friendship of someone I value greatly, and words expressing how much this has upset me are hard to come by.

And that's what's happened between you and P3nt, and both of you are responsible to one degree or another, just as what happened between Nigel and I didn't happen in an entirely one-sided manner.

So what we have is an engine that generates ill-will.  Thing is, we already had that.  We have merely added to The Machine, because we couldn't keep a fucking lid on our emotions or separate "people" and "beliefs".

OOK OOK!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think that's the problem. Telling me which specific beliefs and behaviors I need to have is counterproductive even if you're right about them.

I want to tattoo this on my fucking forehead.

[Juana]

Maybe Feminism is like that. It could be a shared ideal, even if it's a nebulous ideal, of gender equality and everything you do to contribute to that ideal and achieve it. If that's what it is, that's awesome and I support it because regardless of what we might disagree on, only what we do in concert counts as Feminism. Everything else is noise and not considered part of the equation. But if Feminism is a set of beliefs we must subscribe to in order to achieve "gender equality" through some mechanical function of an explicitly defined collective, I don't really want in.

This seems a little contradictory. Could you expand on this?

Since there is no word that fits in "Discordia:Discordianism::___________:Feminism" I will make one up.

Feminasm: Something that happens or exists, that furthers the goals of gender equality. Something accomplished. Something concrete that diminishes the social power of patriarchy.

Feminism: An unwieldy, cumbersome tower of suppositions, assumptions and beliefs that empowers a person to decide whether or not someone or something is sufficiently Feminist, and actually has very little to do with accomplishing anything.

From another angle: I am not interested in being part of a club, but I am interested in living in a world where gender equality is the norm and not the exception. I don't want to be programmed with a scripted set of required behaviors and beliefs ("Feminism") and join a collective to achieve that, though; I want to be given the latitude to realize and learn and come to my own conclusions, and make my own contributions to the cause without being told I am not doing it correctly ("Feminasm").

I can agree with most of that. But there are behaviors and beliefs (unless you're defining that differently than "ideas that make up some of your BiP bars") that even Feminiasm requires, yes? Not tolerating asshole bullshit, being willing to examine how the system benefits you, even when it gets ugly, and adjusting your behavior and perceptions as necessary, etc.

I think that's the problem. Telling me which specific beliefs and behaviors I need to have is counterproductive even if you're right about them. It isn't that I disagree with what you'd have me do, it's that it's important to me that I arrive at that point and do those things without you needing to tell me to. That doesn't mean we can't have the discussion, because if nobody brings these things up, nobody's going to learn about them or act on them, but it's not going to help if every time my ideas don't reach as far as yours, or my actions don't measure up in some way with what you would like to see, I am met with "OMGPRIVILEGESEXISM." There has to be a recognition for every hand pushing this wreck off the highway, no matter how slight the pressure, as long as it isn't trying to pull the wrong way.

I don't begrudge you the fact that your ideas might not reach as far as mine. I get the impression you've gone less reading than I have. That's how it goes.
I tend to think that being able to tell people when to check their privilege (so long as evidence OF privilege, or whatever term you wish to use, is provided) is valuable. It's, "hey, your position in society makes it harder to see what x group sees. Here's why." do you disagree?

I will come back and answer this better in an hour or so, as I need to skedaddle to class.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I tend to think that being able to tell people when to check their privilege (so long as evidence OF privilege, or whatever term you wish to use, is provided) is valuable.

If you can do it in a way that doesn't say SHUT UP and/or GET BACK IN YOUR BOX.

I know you and Nigel didn't mean that (I think SP did), but delivery is everything.