UNLIMITED holist appreciation thread

[Dildo Argentino]

Oh, I replied before I saw the thing about not knowing and doing the maths: 20 years or so, then.

[Dildo Argentino]

And here goes. Once more: I am not doing this to be an asshole. I am doing it for an entirely different reason, which, for the time being, is sort out of focus for me: I can make out that it's not to be an asshole... and not much more.

ANARCHANGEL: Without Armor
http://cdbaby.com/cd/anarchangel


1 -   Monster

The timing is sloppy on the riff in the intro. I don't think it's intentional, but correct me if I'm wrong. I think even if it is, it comes off as unintenional, in that case, if you wanted a slightly parlando feel for the intro, you would have to make that more obvious. A musical gesture always has to be definite, like a swing with a sword. Paradoxically, this is the most important when you are straying from rhythm, playing to your own uncertain time rather than the relentless tick of a clock (which, in itself, is great, I love it!)

Her voice, to me, has an almost English-folksy quality to it (Maddie Pryor, for instance) . For me, this kind of voice with this kind of music moves unavoidably towards a kind of earnestness that I find ridiculous in the bad sense: heroic, without humour, self-obsessed. (Dream Theatre, as an example, also, of a technically extremely accomplished, but mostly musically exactly totally worthless band). The sound canvas thing in the middle (starts to float in around 2:46) is also a move in that direction. Some people can carry this kind of over-the-top off, but it's hard. (My current absolute favourite, Sparklehorse comes to mind, or the heavy metal Ween tracks - but when it works, or at least when it works for me, there is always an ironic distancing there, through either the lyrics, the voice itself, or sometimes drums or some other track that just don't fit the rest, stylewise) The new riff, which comes in around 3:55, is great. But the voice comes back, and we're firmly back in the territory of the worst Jethro Tull albums: heroism, darkness, plight, icy winds - all of which fails to sound convincing. I also maintain that the singer is slightly out of tune practically always. As it is recorded here, her intonation sounds uncertain. Given that tracks were recorded individually, I also don't see why here voice didn't receive some (or more appropriate) treatment. It sounds totally raw, like a live recording in a concert room with far less than perfect acoustics.

Learning not to accept unsuitable circumstances is a very important part of professionalism.

2 -   Skinless

I actually like the way this starts off (intros and outros are often the strongest point of many bands, I suppose basically because 30 seconds is significantly less than 4 minutes. The voice here, however, is even less in tune (surprising, it's a quieter track, she should have heard herself better in the mix) - when she makes her voice waver at the end of long notes, it sounds laboured, you can hear that she is doing it on purpose... usually a bad thing, I think. But then, my grossly eclectic taste in music (no jazzy person, by the way, I am not in any way affiliated with any genre. I used to think all dubstep was crap, but I was recently proven wrong, thanks, PD!) is actually very easy to summarise: I like spontaneity, humor and joy of music. Unless those shine (and they can bloody well shine in even extremely depressed tracks, check ''It's a wonderful life" by Sparklehorse, yes, I know I'm a fanboy). The way she starts some tones quiet and then strengthens them also sounds contrived.

Ah, and unfortunately, the vocal tune, the melody, is just entirely lacking in imagination, there is nothing whatsoever catchy about it (but its not weird enough to be intentionally and enjoyably "uncatchy", like some Bjork tracks, for instance). Nondescript is also a word I would use. The chords, I am afraid to say, are predictable and hackneyed. Still, there is a positive development when the song begins to grow balls at 2:35 - only there are no dynamics (general complaint about this song as well - volume is practically constant throughout, not a good sign). And her voice is just not powerful enough to sound convincing with this more muscular backing. If it is an overdub (as you tell me it is)... she's not a good enough singer, really. Sorry. Machines could do wonders to her voice (because it is never grossly out of tune, always slightly out of tune, and machines are today extremely good at correcting that without leaving artifacts) Hang on: 4:35: genuine emotion seems to have appeared in the voice. Not for long though, unfortunately. The guitar solo is boring, atrocious, painful on the ear. Also, why does the drum-track have practically no bass to it? The snare sounds tinny, there's billions of cymbals (not my favourite instruments, granted, unless used with very careful moderation).


3 -   Good vs. Evil

Time on the piano intro, again, sloppy. If it was a digital piano (sounds like it may have been), then you can slow the midi track down and actually hear how sloppy it is. But sorry, I'm running out of the kind of attention that's needed here: I'll do Stare at the Sun, the song you had the most to do with for now.

4 -   Stare At the Sun

This guitar riff has no timing problems at the beginning. For my liking, it is excessively wet (to much effects, to little guitar).  The 'airplane landing' sound at the end of the intro is very nice. What made it?

Your intonation is actually better than the lady singers! You did get reverb and perhaps some chorus? She deserves those things, too.
Also, the vocals are somehow in the middle of the mix, I would bring them further forward, actually make the singing less wet, too: this would result in more understandable lyrics and more personality in the voice, both good. But the tune itself is very-very simple, basically four notes, usually single steps on a fournote scale. I'm not saying this sort of thing can't be good. But if the voice is made to sound like this (powerful, musical-instrumenty, almost, you would expect more movement, more whatchumacallit, virtuosity? And dynamics, again: singing every note at exactly the same volume makes for a contrived, boring sound!

The piano solo: lordy. It makes no difference at all. I suppose even rather placid and boring pianists must have the occasional short solo...

Unfortunately, as you go louder at about 2:30, you loose being in tune. The stress on your vocal chords is clearly audible and I think not pleasant. The guitar solo: pointless finger-flipping, sometimes stepping out of scale momentarily, obviously not intentionally... the ground is covered with guitarists of this level of skill and this level of musical imagination. The keyboard sound at the outro, lingering on: why??

That's about it. And all of this, even if its all true, doesn't make you a worse Twid in any way. You are competent heavy metal band, who find paying gigs, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it's a lifestyle thing: this band, as I am sure you can also hear, if you try to give your own album a dispassionate listen (very-very-very-very hard to do, I know) is not going to make it big. But for all that, plenty of people can be having a great time at your gigs. And if you're happy with that, I'm certainly happy with that... only a while back it seemed you were not entirely happy about it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Oh, I replied before I saw the thing about not knowing and doing the maths: 20 years or so, then.

Close, but less. I am only 31. Anyway, I remain insulted until you actually give an in depth analysis.

Twid,
17.5 years in February

[Dildo Argentino]

I've pretty much pinned down the source of my boredom.

It's called spending too much fucking time in my room in winter. That is all there is to it.

I need to say first that it is very hard to say from this distance... but it does look like, there's a chance, that you are lying to yourself there.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I've pretty much pinned down the source of my boredom.

It's called spending too much fucking time in my room in winter. That is all there is to it.

I need to say first that it is very hard to say from this distance... but it does look like, there's a chance, that you are lying to yourself there.

Nope. Seriously. I chilled with the band tonight, or rather, last night, and I had a blast, and I don't feel bored.

[Dildo Argentino]

That's fair enough, and congratulations.

A little parcel for you:

My kind of heavy rock:

Ween - Stroker Ace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmX7-N5nKzw

and even more so:
Ween - The Grobe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyhau0B28P0

Prince: Whole lotta love (it's a cover!)
http://blip.tv/guitarfan/whole-lotta-love-prince-79120

Sparklehorse: Pig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xQSWpLCcpE

And, if you want entirely earnest, I haven't forgotten these people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F46r-_jPPHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmin5WkOuPw

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And here goes. Once more: I am not doing this to be an asshole. I am doing it for an entirely different reason, which, for the time being, is sort out of focus for me: I can make out that it's not to be an asshole... and not much more.

ANARCHANGEL: Without Armor
http://cdbaby.com/cd/anarchangel


1 -   Monster

The timing is sloppy on the riff in the intro. I don't think it's intentional, but correct me if I'm wrong. I think even if it is, it comes off as unintenional, in that case, if you wanted a slightly parlando feel for the intro, you would have to make that more obvious. A musical gesture always has to be definite, like a swing with a sword. Paradoxically, this is the most important when you are straying from rhythm, playing to your own uncertain time rather than the relentless tick of a clock (which, in itself, is great, I love it!)

not my intro, but, pretty sure it was on click.

Her voice, to me, has an almost English-folksy quality to it (Maddie Pryor, for instance) . For me, this kind of voice with this kind of music moves unavoidably towards a kind of earnestness that I find ridiculous in the bad sense: heroic, without humour, self-obsessed. (Dream Theatre, as an example, also, of a technically extremely accomplished, but mostly musically exactly totally worthless band).

What would you prefer then? It's a song that I get to play on my 7 string that happens to be lyrically about personal challenges through the metaphor of Tolkien, which, while well traveled, I don't think gets old. It would be like me referencing Jesus in a song, except that no one built a religion around orcs (except for Varg). Anyway, Battle of Evermore is pretty good, but isn't nearly as heavy, and just as serious.

The sound canvas thing in the middle (starts to float in around 2:46) is also a move in that direction. Some people can carry this kind of over-the-top off, but it's hard. (My current absolute favourite, Sparklehorse comes to mind, or the heavy metal Ween tracks - but when it works, or at least when it works for me, there is always an ironic distancing there, through either the lyrics, the voice itself, or sometimes drums or some other track that just don't fit the rest, stylewise) The new riff, which comes in around 3:55, is great.

I am the main creative force behind both these riffs. The rest was built around my bit.

But the voice comes back, and we're firmly back in the territory of the worst Jethro Tull albums: heroism, darkness, plight, icy winds - all of which fails to sound convincing.

I also maintain that the singer is slightly out of tune practically always. As it is recorded here, her intonation sounds uncertain. Given that tracks were recorded individually, I also don't see why here voice didn't receive some (or more appropriate) treatment. It sounds totally raw, like a live recording in a concert room with far less than perfect acoustics.

Take it up with her college and the engineer. Sounds fine to me.

Learning not to accept unsuitable circumstances is a very important part of professionalism.

Perhaps. Personality and amiability also factor in a lot though, too.

2 -   Skinless

I actually like the way this starts off (intros and outros are often the strongest point of many bands, I suppose basically because 30 seconds is significantly less than 4 minutes. The voice here, however, is even less in tune (surprising, it's a quieter track, she should have heard herself better in the mix) - when she makes her voice waver at the end of long notes, it sounds laboured, you can hear that she is doing it on purpose... usually a bad thing, I think. But then, my grossly eclectic taste in music (no jazzy person, by the way, I am not in any way affiliated with any genre.

I don't hear anything off. Just saying. Maybe I give vox a little leeway but I'm pretty unforgiving of myself.

I used to think all dubstep was crap, but I was recently proven wrong, thanks, PD!) is actually very easy to summarise: I like spontaneity, humor and joy of music.

Ummm.... We're a Metal band. We can do spontaneity and joy in playing, and humor in our lyrics. I don't know what you are expecting otherwise.

Unless those shine (and they can bloody well shine in even extremely depressed tracks, check ''It's a wonderful life" by Sparklehorse, yes, I know I'm a fanboy). The way she starts some tones quiet and then strengthens them also sounds contrived.

Well, I have to now, even though I would have ignored the first mention. I'll pay you back for that at the end of this post.

Ah, and unfortunately, the vocal tune, the melody, is just entirely lacking in imagination, there is nothing whatsoever catchy about it (but its not weird enough to be intentionally and enjoyably "uncatchy", like some Bjork tracks, for instance). Nondescript is also a word I would use.

I would say that this is actually a fair critique, though I disagree.

The chords, I am afraid to say, are predictable and hackneyed.

Instrument/if guitar which/time mark please. I'm actually doing quite a bit in this song.

Still, there is a positive development when the song begins to grow balls at 2:35 - only there are no dynamics (general complaint about this song as well - volume is practically constant throughout, not a good sign).

Quite honestly dude, you are the only, and I mean only, person to give this song a negative review. I think that people's taste in music is often crap too, but.....

And her voice is just not powerful enough to sound convincing with this more muscular backing. If it is an overdub (as you tell me it is)... she's not a good enough singer, really. Sorry. Machines could do wonders to her voice (because it is never grossly out of tune, always slightly out of tune, and machines are today extremely good at correcting that without leaving artifacts) Hang on: 4:35: genuine emotion seems to have appeared in the voice. Not for long though, unfortunately.

She got her degree and works for the Church. Just saying. I happen to think she's an excellent singer. But then again, I like Iron Maiden, so what do I know.

The guitar solo is boring,

I might agree with you here up until:

atrocious, painful on the ear. Also, why does the drum-track have practically no bass to it? The snare sounds tinny, there's billions of cymbals (not my favourite instruments, granted, unless used with very careful moderation).

Hmmmm... Does need more bass drum in the mix. I'll give you that.

3 -   Good vs. Evil

Time on the piano intro, again, sloppy.

Played to click.

If it was a digital piano (sounds like it may have been), then you can slow the midi track down and actually hear how sloppy it is.

I write riffs. I play riffs. I sing sometimes. I know nothing of midi. Not my business.

But sorry, I'm running out of the kind of attention that's needed here: I'll do Stare at the Sun, the song you had the most to do with for now.

4 -   Stare At the Sun

This guitar riff has no timing problems at the beginning. For my liking, it is excessively wet (to much effects, to little guitar).  The 'airplane landing' sound at the end of the intro is very nice. What made it?

You should have heard the wet before. I used to play the verses and choruses with a lot of flanger and reversed reverb (Boss BF-3 and a Digitech XDV Digiverb. However, here, I think it's just clean with a ElectroHarmonix MemoryMan, if memory serves.) It wasn't my pedal either way. It's just a bunch of delay with a clean channel. The airplane sound you're hearing is basically the other guitarist hitting his whammy bar with feedback. He does that live too.

Your intonation is actually better than the lady singers! You did get reverb and perhaps some chorus? She deserves those things, too.

All of my clean vocals were doubled because of the.. what's the word. Timbre? of my voice. It wasn't thick enough. I hated it, and apparently Kurt Cobain hated it too, but now I understand why Nevermind seemed to have a weird vocal effect. Her voice is considered, at least to most, strong enough not to need that doubling.

Also, the vocals are somehow in the middle of the mix, I would bring them further forward, actually make the singing less wet, too: this would result in more understandable lyrics and more personality in the voice, both good.

Dammit holist, I'm a history major, not a producer!

But the tune itself is very-very simple, basically four notes, usually single steps on a fournote scale. I'm not saying this sort of thing can't be good. But if the voice is made to sound like this (powerful, musical-instrumenty, almost, you would expect more movement, more whatchumacallit, virtuosity? And dynamics, again: singing every note at exactly the same volume makes for a contrived, boring sound!

Dammit holist, I just do what I wrote! No seriously. This was meant to be, vocally at least, a very simple, depressing song. Listen to the lyrics, if you can make them out. Maybe my accent kills it, I dunno.

The piano solo: lordy. It makes no difference at all. I suppose even rather placid and boring pianists must have the occasional short solo...

Funny, I never considered that a solo. I always considered it a build up on a bridge. Sometimes a cigar is a penis.

Unfortunately, as you go louder at about 2:30, you loose being in tune. The stress on your vocal chords is clearly audible and I think not pleasant.

This is a fair assessment, and partially a product of the doubling. Though, I will admit this is a consistently, but not constantly, difficult part for me to do, since it is basically hitting my limit.

The guitar solo: pointless finger-flipping, sometimes stepping out of scale momentarily, obviously not intentionally... the ground is covered with guitarists of this level of skill and this level of musical imagination.

Well, you may be happy to know then that on the next album I'm the soloist. We discussed it tonight. I have more theory but I take my sweet time coming up with a solo. But, I have no problem, overall, with the solo here. Maybe pointless. Maybe could have been better done, but honestly, I'm more concerned with the arpeggios I'm doing underneath it.

The keyboard sound at the outro, lingering on: why??

My call. Just like keeping my muttering beyond that. I thought the muttering was funny.

That's about it. And all of this, even if its all true, doesn't make you a worse Twid in any way. You are competent heavy metal band, who find paying gigs, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it's a lifestyle thing: this band, as I am sure you can also hear, if you try to give your own album a dispassionate listen (very-very-very-very hard to do, I know) is not going to make it big. But for all that, plenty of people can be having a great time at your gigs. And if you're happy with that, I'm certainly happy with that... only a while back it seemed you were not entirely happy about it.

You didn't download the last two songs?

And you know, I have my own criticisms of the band, and some of the album, which I will keep to myself. Because I did put a lot of heart and soul into my amateurish effort, as did my comrades in arms.  And at the end of the day, I wouldn't have any other bandmates, despite everything. Because they put their all into it too.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Oh, and listen to everything this band has ever done (they should also pay me for all of the promotion I do for them):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWUE9qigSYE

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Also, I'm pretty sure Anarchangel going anywhere at this point is a moot point.

Life changes and that sort of thing. You might know more about that though if you paid more attention to the stuff that was going on around me rather than my boredom. It's not like I mentioned it once.

I might well have to get my fame elsewhere. And I'm ok with that. As long as I can keep the bassist, I'm 100% happy.

Unless of course, I decide to be the bassist.

[Dildo Argentino]

I admit, I have not been paying much attention to the vagaries of your personal life.

Those of mine have been occupying my mind, because I am going through major life changes right now - with a family of 8, this is...
well, complicated. Call me a Narcissist! 

(After those heady weeks last winter, I've only been back on PD for a few months, and it took me until about 3 weeks ago to figure out why I come here. So, sorry.)

[Dildo Argentino]

Also, the vocals are somehow in the middle of the mix, I would bring them further forward, actually make the singing less wet, too: this would result in more understandable lyrics and more personality in the voice, both good.

Dammit holist, I'm a history major, not a producer!

I thought we were working on the assumption that you are a recording musician, no?

You didn't download the last two songs?

No, I did, in fact, I got the whole album, zipped... but, as I was saying, I was running out of the sort of
attention that this level of detailed listening requires.

And there is one other thing, and you ain't going to like it... There are three of four instances in your responses where you contest what I say about those two very important things: being in tune and being on time. The hard thing for me to say, because you are going to accuse me of condescension (again), while this is furthest from my mind, actually, is that these things are objective. The slight inaccuracy of rhythm (actually a must in swing, but not good in heavy rock) and the slight out-of-tuneness are audible, THey are there, in the mp3s, right now. If you can't hear the tempo problems, it's your ear/brain. YOu have access to the individual tracks, you have access to a somewhat programmable time-click: listen to the individual tracks, with a fast time-click (say 16th, with accents on each quarter, and a bigger one on the first one?). You should be able to hear it. It doesn't exactly stand out as a sore thumb, but it is quite noticable and definite. You may even find that the actual notes are exactly on tic - and that's what makes them sound wrong, because once the whole band is going, it's got a degree of swing, and the riff, previously "clock-perfect", settles into the pocket - and sounds better for it. As for how you could learn to hear that the singing's out of tune... I don't know. But it is. Not always, hardly ever by very much... but it is.

And you know, I have my own criticisms of the band, and some of the album, which I will keep to myself. Because I did put a lot of heart and soul into my amateurish effort, as did my comrades in arms.  And at the end of the day, I wouldn't have any other bandmates, despite everything. Because they put their all into it too.

Well good for you. In the end, that's all that matters. I am certainly not complaining, I am not saying this is evil music, or culturally detrimental music, or whatever... it's just not very good songs not very well played. Reasonable songs, quite well played?

I'm very picky.

Please don't hate me for it!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay. But what you are saying is not true: I have posted a great deal of music, art: this didn't get any responses at all because you were already hostile.

Then I guess you fail at the whole communication thing, right?

Won't be troubling you again, until you ask for it.

DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT, BUT YOU ASKED FOR IT.
\

The only reason for that is that I am still unwilling the accept that some of the most vocal people here are not as brilliant as seems to be concensus

And there's your problem, asshole.  It's not that anyone here is particularly gifted, it's that you're retarded.  Everyone else here knows that the bashing around we do is more like warm up exercises, before we write or argue the topic of the day or whatever it is we do to have, you know, FUN.  YOU, on the other hand, are here to get the same sort of "respect" you get from whatever damage cases you have around you.  You are used to being the weirdest guy in the room, etc, and since you aren't the weirdest guy HERE, you have to put your monkey suit on and attempt to screech your way up the pecking order.

Thing is, that's a guaranteed way to stay at the very bottom.  Not because of MIND LASERS or HIVE MIND or anything like that, but because you're a boring and unfunny yahoo.  You're not going to succeed in your crusade, because it exists only in your pointy little head.  You have become what you always laughed at...A DUMBASS.

I don't expect you to be bipedal enough to do anything with this information, except maybe screech some more, but I thought I'd put it out there.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled poop-flinging.

ETA:  Oh, and it's "consensus", genius.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well good for you. In the end, that's all that matters. I am certainly not complaining, I am not saying this is evil music, or culturally detrimental music, or whatever... it's just not very good songs not very well played. Reasonable songs, quite well played?

I'm very picky.

Please don't hate me for it!

I don't think that's why people hate you.

And your opinion isn't exactly taken as writ, here.  Why Twid even bothers talking to your jealous ass is beyond me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Sounds like emotional maladjustment, anger management problems in particular.

Anger is in fact a great deal of fun. But if it's chronic, it destroys the organism. Hopefully transhumanisation becomes available before it does.

Or you could just stop getting worked up over the trivial facts of life, retune your radio, and enjoy the occasional burst of wrath when it is actually justified.

Because being angry is fun, but being righteously angry in a justified fashion and taking appropriate action as a result is one of the best things in life.

Once again, Holist is jealous of people who can DO, rather than criticize.

Well done, monkey boy.

[Dildo Argentino]

Once again, Holist is jealous of people who can DO, rather than criticize.

Man, that's mean! 

But DO what? Whinge?

Well done, monkey boy.

Ah, thanks.