Police cameras

[East Coast Hustle]

Really? Because I don't see you linking to any sources to back up YOUR assertions.

[AFK]

To prove the negative, that most police actually just do the jobs they are hired to do?  Where do you suppose that kind of information is kept?  I shouldn't have to explain why the majority of instances when the police are just doing their normal day to day job doesn't make the papers. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Or the UN Human Rights Commission report. Even though that's a report on the systemic problems with the institution.

[AFK]

with some of the institutions, yes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So we really don't need the police? At all? Zero effect on crime whatsoever? Can't help feeling just a tad sceptical. I'm pretty sure there's at least a couple of people in the world, who're in jail and deserve to be because the police caught them doing something bad. Maybe I'm just being naive and drinking Kool Aid, tho.

So is the whole justice system a waste of time then? I mean with no one to investigate, capture and bring to trial, I don't suppose there's any point having courts and prisons and shit?

Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I said. 

No, I'm not fucking with you. Just trying to get my head around what yours and ECH's argument is. I'm the first one to say the whole shit needs fixed. First time I got hit by a copper was when I was about 13 or 14 but I still think the net result is positive, ie they do (slightly) more good than harm. If you think this is not the case then surely you're in favour of a no coppers scenario, which strikes me as bizarrs? Like I said - not fucking with you - just trying to work out what your position actually is.

That they have far too much power and are allowed to get away with murder, and that in addition giving them more power or throwing more police officers at high crime rates in an attempt to reduce crime is ineffective at best, and that, because of the amount of power and privilege they have, measures such as camera monitoring are highly unlikely to succeed at reining in their abuses of power, and if they are implemented at all are highly likely to be misused to skew the power balance even further in favor of police abuse.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not speaking for Nigel or ECH, but I think it's kind of like water: If you don't drink any, you will die; and if you drink to much... you will die. 

The the problem being we live in a fear-based society where the probablities of danger and crime being blown completely out of proportion, and politicians constantly running on "tough on crime" platforms, which when combined allow the police force to swell to potentially harmful levels.

Yes, pretty much this.

[Telarus]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/chicagos-top-cop-says-he-wont-tolerate-code-of-silence-that-jury-found-in-womans-beating/2012/11/14/77d6214e-2eb2-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_story.html

[East Coast Hustle]

with some of the institutions, yes.

Translation: I didn't actually read the UNHRC report so I'm going to try to keep being vague and clinging to my completely unsupported assertions.

Because if you DID read the report, you would have known that it was addressing the entire institution of policehood in the USA, how it is structured, and what it is used for.

[East Coast Hustle]

Official studies, as well as those of domestic and international civil and
human rights organizations, have consistently found that people and communities of color are
disproportionately subjected to human rights violations at the hands of law enforcement officers,
ranging from pervasive verbal abuse and harassment, racial profiling, routine stops and frisks
based solely on race or gender to excessive force, unjustified shootings, and torture.

In
2000, the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, an independent, bipartisan agency established by
Congress in 1957, reviewed the findings of its 1981 report Who is Guarding the Guardians: A
Report on Police Practices, and concluded that "many of its findings and recommendations
still ring true today," noting that "reports of alleged police brutality, harassment, and
misconduct continue to spread throughout the country. People of color, women, and the poor are
groups of Americans that seem to bear the brunt of the abuse..."

Systemic abuse of people of color by law enforcement
officers has not only continued since 2001 but has worsened in both practice and severity.
According to a representative of the NAACP, "the degree to which police brutality occurs...is
the worst I've seen in 50 years."

It is clear from the statistics and cases discussed in this section that disproportionate use of
excessive force by law enforcement officers against people of color remains endemic across the
U.S. While the U.S. government acknowledges the existence of police brutality in its current
report to the Committee, it maintains that existing judicial remedies are sufficient to meet its
obligations under the Convention.
In reality, law enforcement officials enjoy impunity with respect to the use of excessive force
against people of color. Criminal investigations are rarely convened, charges are seldom brought
and convictions are rarely sought or obtained against officers responsible for such violations.
The Federal Department of Justice, limited by the high standard of intent imposed by
legislation, as well as the limited resources devoted to investigation and prosecution of law enforcement misconduct, is often unable or unwilling to bring federal criminal charges against
law enforcement officers who engage in race-based policing and abuse, or to initiate civil actions
where a pattern and practice of such abuse exists. Police Department disciplinary investigations
are often conducted by the very same law enforcement agencies which employ the offending
officers, or by civilian review agencies with little or no authority to discipline officers. Given
the likely lack of any criminal, civil or professional repercussions, law enforcement officers feel
free to commit racist acts of violence and to engage in disproportionate use of force against
people of color on a daily basis.
Moreover, complaints of police misconduct remain private and confidential, and governmental
agencies resist efforts to obtain full disclosure or transparency in agency investigations. Thus,
members of the public do not have access to the information necessary to determine the
effectiveness, or lack thereof, of law enforcement departments' training, monitoring and
disciplinary systems.
Thus, it is clear that the U.S. has failed to satisfy its obligations under the Convention to "prevent
and severely punish," and to take effective measures to prevent and eliminate, racially
discriminatory violence by law enforcement officials.

[AFK]

I read it but it was a piece focusing on racial profiling and police brutality which focused on specific case studies in cities (e.g. Chicago), and does support the notion there are issues with some law enforcement institutions, but it was not a piece purporting to ascribe that to every law enforcement agency everywhere.  And I know there are plenty out there who do the right thing.  I'm not just talking about my personal experience, which is quite varied, but also the experience of my colleagues across the country who do similar work, and who foster the same partnerships with law enforcement.


And we are all out there working for the at risk, those who have mental health issues, non-whites.  Do you really think if law enforcement were regularly savaging and oppressing the people we are being FUNDED to serve that we would partner with them?  That would be completely counterproductive to our work.

[East Coast Hustle]

But hey, who needs evidence of systemic widespread abuses including torture? We have RWHN's gut feeling that cops are really good guys.

[AFK]

Hands-on experience, not gut feeling.

[AFK]

But, just for a moment, let's pretend it is actually as pervasive as you seem to believe.  So then what?  These are LOCAL agencies.  It is up to the LOCALITIES to police the police.  Certainly if and when they break federal or state law, the feds or the state come in.  But beyond that, the power to change the culture is within the towns.  There is nothing that can be mandated from upon high.  And so, ultimately, each law enforcement agency is going to be something of a reflection upon the values of its community.


And that is why, further, it is ludicrous to believe that every law enforcement agency, or even a majority of them, are the same because each community is different. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Hands-on experience....with less than 1% of the total of US law enforcement. In a setting where they're not actually on patrol or responding to a call. So yeah, your incredibly limited and completely anecdotal evidence totally outweighs the data collected by the UN.

By the way, you say you read that report. You DO know the meaning of the words "systemic" and "endemic", right? So I'll just safely assume that's more of you ignoring the stuff that doesn't fit your narrative.

[East Coast Hustle]

you seem to have missed this the first time around:

The Federal Department of Justice, limited by the high standard of intent imposed by
legislation, as well as the limited resources devoted to investigation and prosecution of law enforcement misconduct, is often unable or unwilling to bring federal criminal charges against
law enforcement officers who engage in race-based policing and abuse, or to initiate civil actions
where a pattern and practice of such abuse exists. Police Department disciplinary investigations
are often conducted by the very same law enforcement agencies which employ the offending
officers, or by civilian review agencies with little or no authority to discipline officers.