Police cameras

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Well this thread has turned fabulous and all, but really....
the only way that we're going to definitively answer the question about whether all cops are sociopathic douchebags or only 90% of the cops are sociopathic douchebags is to staple some fucking cameras to their heads that they can't turn off, and stream to a server farm for use in court cases.

am i right, or am i right?!

Sure, I'd say so.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

[AFK]

Also, think about it, if the government was so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?

Um, if you looked at many of the local races across the country, keeping this at the same level as the local police departments, they don't.  We just kicked out a bunch of state legislators here because they were awful.  So, yeah, it actually DOES happen.

[Cain]

I mean, the proletariat control the means of production, so if the bourgeoise are so terrible, why do people put up with them?  After all, their labour provides them with wealth and political influence.  You can throw off your chains and cause the state to wither away, if you chose to exercise that power.

[Phox]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

I can tell you about rural areas in 3 other states, and cities in 4.  Let's not forget the additional data from ECH's travels, Portland, and Texas. Which makes a hell of a lot better sample than Maine. 

[AFK]

I dunno what to say guys, I just think this place has just sunk so far into the tales of horrormirth that it is all you guys can see, even when it isn't there.  And the problem with that, is you end up unwittingly forsaking allies, which I think is very unfortunate.

On the contrary. I'm an optimist. And I don't think I'm forsaking allies by saying that while not all cops are racist, and not all cops are not racist, the fact that there is still enough racism in American law enforcement for the UN to make note of it shows that it's a problem.

Hell, even if there is only one racist cop in the United States, that's still a problem. Maybe not a stereotype, but still a problem.

If anything I think you're tinting your glass a certain pink color. Which is fine, but just remember that you did it.

But one must consider the chicken and the egg.  I would want the UN to look a little deeper and consider the community level racism with the departments in question.  As I said earlier in this thread, LEAs are going to some degree be reflections of their communities.  In other words, in a community that on balance tends to be hostile to minorities, it wouldn't be surprising to see officers hired from that town harboring those same feelings.


But, in the city where I work, the department has largely been able to escape that and NOT harbor any institutional racism against the refugee population.


I feel very strongly that my view on this is open and very well informed.

So you admit that your open and well informed opinion is reflective of the city where you work, not necessarily representative of the rest of the country.

Because as far as I can tell, we're also not saying that Maricopa or Los Angeles is representative either.

I dunno, it really feels like that is the argument being made.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

I can tell you about rural areas in 3 other states, and cities in 4.  Let's not forget the additional data from ECH's travels, Portland, and Texas. Which makes a hell of a lot better sample than Maine. 

Now now, Phox. All of that plus the others we mentioned aren't representative of the US. There is Lewiston, after all.

[AFK]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty. 

[Cain]

It's amazing how RWHN is giving the exact same arguments the defenders of the Metropolitan Police have over the last few years.  You know, before reality blew up in their faces in the form of institutional arrangements between them, a criminal foreign cartel (News International) and the Tory Party being exposed, covering up crimes by members of Parliament, witness intimidation and criminality which has caused entire departments to be shut down and investigated, drug and gun running, beating peaceful protestors and lying about the final moments of people it has shot dead in the streets.

You know, that it's a few bad apples and anyone suggesting the police are institutionally criminal or corrupt are suggesting every single police officer is violent and corrupt, and besides you don't have any studies besides all those ones which show people dying every week in police custody with no officers having being arrested in over a decade for such deaths, or that black and Asian people are 30 times more likely to be stopped by the police, to back up any of your claims.

Just saying.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I dunno what to say guys, I just think this place has just sunk so far into the tales of horrormirth that it is all you guys can see, even when it isn't there.  And the problem with that, is you end up unwittingly forsaking allies, which I think is very unfortunate.

On the contrary. I'm an optimist. And I don't think I'm forsaking allies by saying that while not all cops are racist, and not all cops are not racist, the fact that there is still enough racism in American law enforcement for the UN to make note of it shows that it's a problem.

Hell, even if there is only one racist cop in the United States, that's still a problem. Maybe not a stereotype, but still a problem.

If anything I think you're tinting your glass a certain pink color. Which is fine, but just remember that you did it.

But one must consider the chicken and the egg.  I would want the UN to look a little deeper and consider the community level racism with the departments in question.  As I said earlier in this thread, LEAs are going to some degree be reflections of their communities.  In other words, in a community that on balance tends to be hostile to minorities, it wouldn't be surprising to see officers hired from that town harboring those same feelings.


But, in the city where I work, the department has largely been able to escape that and NOT harbor any institutional racism against the refugee population.


I feel very strongly that my view on this is open and very well informed.

So you admit that your open and well informed opinion is reflective of the city where you work, not necessarily representative of the rest of the country.

Because as far as I can tell, we're also not saying that Maricopa or Los Angeles is representative either.

I dunno, it really feels like that is the argument being made.

Well what is the case being made? That every precinct is a dystopian nightmare? Or that enough cops are shitty people, even if only sometimes, that it's a problem?

I honestly don't know, this thread was started when I was at work, and it seemed too heavy for me to read on my phone. Now it's Saturday and I'm feeling kinda lazy to go back and read it. But what I'm getting out of this is that your argument seems to be that cops can't be nearly as bad because of the cops I know and dealt with (anecdotal evidence) and even though everyone else knows about or has had experienced police corruption in their areas doesn't count because it's anecdotal.

Even though that anecdotal evidence seems to far outnumber yours. As far as what I'm telling you about Boston, it's right there in their union newsletter. You can read what Boston cops think. That's not anecdotal. That's from the horse's mouth. I don't know what goes on with the police in other parts of the country. Hell, I'm in a city next to Boston and I don't know what the cops here are like. In my head, I'm still a Bostonian. So the best I can do is say, "hey, this is what it's like in Boston, what's it like there?" I don't expect it to be like Boston, like you seem to think it would be like Lewiston. That's the problem that people are having, as far as I can tell. That cops can't be bad because the cops you know aren't all that bad. They all have to be like the cops you know, and even though there's a vastly negative opinion of cops, that must be incorrect because it doesn't line up with your expectations.

[Cain]

Hey guys, I know three guys who are cops on a personal level, and all are decent human beings who I never known to act dishonourably (truthfully).

I guess all those black kids who keep on dying in London jail cells are just killing themselves!

[Nephew Twiddleton]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty.

No one's saying there aren't good cops or good agencies. Of course there are. Except for NYPD, which doesn't give a shit about its jurisdiction and has basically become the FBI terror squad.

[Phox]

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty.

Umm. You're asking us to go out and personally shadow every single officer of the law because about 45% of them are not complete fucking monsters. Nobody said that every police officer ever is a poorly disguised terrorist. You, however, did say that your experience is that police are not generally corrupt, and that you believe that we are getting caught up in stories about statistically miniscule happenings. You say this, despite the anecdotal and statistical data provided. Okay then. 

[AFK]

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.  With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

[Juana]

Hey guys, I know three guys who are cops on a personal level, and all are decent human beings who I never known to act dishonourably (truthfully).

I guess all those black kids who keep on dying in London jail cells are just killing themselves!

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

Let's dissect this a little. Police brutality complaints are often handled by the department itself and while I can think of two instances in which it lead to a decrease in complaints being filed (LA and Fresno), having complaints handled by an outside source often means the board/auditory doesn't actually have much power to enforce their decisions on complaints.
As a phenomena, it is often under reported, and here are 2010's stats on police brutality, with this highlight: "The current US average projected police misconduct rate is an estimated 977.98 officers per 100,000 officers (mean 909.31 per 100k) as calculated using data gathered from all of 2010."
I think the general gist, RWNH, is that all police departments across the country are problematic. They have shitty officers. There are perfectly good, just, upright cops out there, but most are, well, products of the society that made them and institutional culture. Which does not produce Good Cops very often, imo.