So What's A White Boy To Do?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Look...Nobody's gonna tell me what to do or not do.  There are certain things I certainly won't do, like wear my hair in dreds, not because someone here told me not to...But because I'd look stupid.  Why would I look stupid?  Because I'm obviously and blatantly trying to bite on another culture, to be something I'm not.  Same as the stupid bastards out West here who walk around in those Japanese Lego-block sandals, or the ghouls who rob Indian graves "to get in touch with their heritage".

Me, I'm a White boy.  I am in fact a Canadian White boy, meaning I'm so White that my jump has a negative vertical component.  My culture's history involves mud farming, piracy, casual murder, and "rough music".  And sheep.  Lotsa sheep.

Nuff said.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know, I thought I had an understanding of this finally but now I'm all confused again.
Is something being sacred a personal thing or does an object have an inherent sacredness? Think that's the root of my confusion.

It depends.

But the problem I'm having with this conversation is that a whole bunch of people are caught up on the THINGS, when what I'm talking about is the INTENT. That's in the people, not the things.

And anyone who thinks there isn't a significant contingent of white boys (and girls) who buy indian drums because they want to buy into tribal identity has apparently never met one of the people we are so affectionately referring to here as "Cherohonkeys". Who, actually, are in some sense the people this thread is about, because they are the type of disenfranchised people I'm asking about.

There are layers and layers of racism at play in the word "Cherohonkey" itself, and at some point I'd love to discuss blood-quantum law and how horrific and backward it is. But first it might be nice to clear up the distinction between the objects and the people. RWHN doesn't seem to get that just because an object is the same in every material way as one used for sacred purposes, it doesn't make it a sacred object. Does anyone else have that issue? Can we yalk about it and maybe clarify it a little?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Another way to think about it.  I buy a Tibetan singing bowl, but I use it not to,play traditional Tibetan music.  I use them in some experimental electronic music, which clearly is not the sacred intent, so am I insulting the culture and misappropriating?  I would say no because I feel that I would be honoring the culture by wishing to incorporate something from the culture I respect and have admiration for in my own spiritual expression through my music. 


Now, maybe if I was using them to cook soup there could be a valid complaint.

No, but if the person who sold it to you was selling it as a traditional sacred object blessed by whatever holy person, with inherent sacredness in the object, and you believed that and started calling yourself a Tibetan shaman, and then stared doing faith healings on your friends with that bowl, claiming that it gave you authentic Tibetan healing powers and that you had been adopted into the Tibetan tribe, it would be appropriate to call that a misrepresentation and a misappropriation.

That kind of shit happens ALL THE TIME with Native American objects and culture. It's created a very real problem, too, which ties back into the "Cherohonkey" thing, which is that it has engendered a really unfortunate suspiciousness and hostility in a lot of Native communities toward "outsiders", and that, in my opinion, really hurts the community's ability to allow the descendants of lost children to re-assimilate and bring their skillsets back to the community. Not even to start talking about the blood quantum issues, which are fundamentally racist and genocidal.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not talking about replicas, I mean yeah, they sell the cheaply made shit to tourists who don't know any better.  Pretty much any culture that caters at all to tourists do that.  But the tribe I mentioned was selling stuff that was made by the same hands in the same manners as what they would use themselves.  In the end, the only difference is who is owning the thing and whether they use words to describe it as sacred.

...

That IS the only difference.

Right, it's like ECH said, the difference is what's within the particular person in question, not the actual object.  And since the culture is willingly making and selling "sacred" objects that won't be "sacred" to the person outside of that culture, there is hardly anyone to blame for smeone misappropriating that object.  Because they aren't misappropriating it.

For some reason you seem to be hung up on the idea that the problem here is with the buyer.

The problem here, as I stated in my earliest post on the topic and have restated ever since, is with non-Native (and sometime Native) sellers who pretend that what they're selling is something other than what it is. Selling a drum or a dream-catcher is FINE, and pretty much everyone I'[ve spoken to agrees that it's fine. Selling it under the pretense that it's a sacred object that will convey holy powers onto the buyer is straight-up hucksterism. Historically, many Natives trying to survive have willingly fleeced white tourists, selling them loads of bullshit. Many tribes are trying to reign that in for the sake of tribal dignity. It is an issue even within tribes. It is a whole other issue when white people do it, because they are exploiting both the culture they're "selling" and the unwitting buyers.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think this thread has become less about "cultural misappropriation" (whatever that may actually be) and more about "I wish idiots would stop being idiots and assholes would stop being assholes". Which, obviously, ain't gonna happen.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think this thread has become less about "cultural misappropriation" (whatever that may actually be) and more about "I wish idiots would stop being idiots and assholes would stop being assholes". Which, obviously, ain't gonna happen.

I don't know if you read the OP, but this thread was never meant to be about cultural misappropriation.

[East Coast Hustle]

Oh, I know. But it keeps turning back to that because we as a forum are incapable of not letting one discussion spag up 3 or 4 threads at a time.

Personally I though the concept raised in the OP was more interesting than the one we seem to be actually discussing, but alas, Nigel, I am only one man. And people should be thankful for that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh, I know. But it keeps turning back to that because we as a forum are incapable of not letting one discussion spag up 3 or 4 threads at a time.

Personally I though the concept raised in the OP was more interesting than the one we seem to be actually discussing, but alas, Nigel, I am only one man. And people should be thankful for that.

If you were more than one man the world would be AWESOMELY TERRIFYING.

[Sita]

Ok, here is what I understand.
Selling or using things that are tribal or of a tribal style (whether by actual indians or others) = ok
Selling or using things with the intent of trickery = what everyone has a problem with
Sacredness is a secondary (though seemingly important) component of it, which seems to muddle things.


As far as the OP goes, I've never really been in any kind of culture (to my knowledge). So never had anything to get away from.

[East Coast Hustle]

Uhh, you can't not be part of any culture. It's really not possible unless you were raised by robots in Antarctica.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Uhh, you can't not be part of any culture. It's really not possible unless you were raised by robots in Antarctica.

This.

Even then, you're part of the Antarctica Robot culture.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ok, here is what I understand.
Selling or using things that are tribal or of a tribal style (whether by actual indians or others) = ok
Selling or using things with the intent of trickery = what everyone has a problem with
Sacredness is a secondary (though seemingly important) component of it, which seems to muddle things.


As far as the OP goes, I've never really been in any kind of culture (to my knowledge). So never had anything to get away from.

The sacredness thing was kind of a side note... to say that not only are the fake, exploitative money-grubbing "shamans" doing something that's bullshit and defrauding people in the process, but that even if someone wanted to buy something sacred, they couldn't because the buying part makes it not sacred.

[Sita]

Guess I don't fully understand culture then. Which doesn't surprise me.
How do I find out what culture I'm part of?

Honest question, because I really am quite naive about such things.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Ok, here is what I understand.
Selling or using things that are tribal or of a tribal style (whether by actual indians or others) = ok
Selling or using things with the intent of trickery = what everyone has a problem with
Sacredness is a secondary (though seemingly important) component of it, which seems to muddle things.


As far as the OP goes, I've never really been in any kind of culture (to my knowledge). So never had anything to get away from.

Addendum: Even things that aren't necessarily sacred get approprated.

Buying a Navaho bracelet made by a Navajo trying to make a living = ok
Buying a Franklin Mint plate with a picture of a "Native American" woman with caucasian features in a buckskin miniskirt with a three wolf moon = not ok and DERP.

The sacredness thing was kind of a side note... to say that not only are the fake, exploitative money-grubbing "shamans" doing something that's bullshit and defrauding people in the process, but that even if someone wanted to buy something sacred, they couldn't because the buying part makes it not sacred.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Guess I don't fully understand culture then. Which doesn't surprise me.
How do I find out what culture I'm part of?

Honest question, because I really am quite naive about such things.

What culture is your family part of? Who do you hang out with, where do you live? Your culture is that which you are immersed in. It's invisible to you because it's the default, it's your normal.

A polygamous Mormon living in a Mormon township surrounded by other Mormons doesn't see their surroundings and behaviors as "culture", they see them as "normal". Likewise an Irish Catholic in Boston.