So What's A White Boy To Do?

[AFK]

At least there is some cultural curiousity there, even if it is naive.  It's a fuck ton better than isolationists.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, back to the original scenario I was talking about: the reason many Native Americans object to non-Natives (and, as I've said about four times now, Natives as well) SELLING what are misrepresented as sacred ceremonies and objects, usually under the guise of being sanctioned by some tribe or tribal elder, is because they feel that it is a sort of cultural slander. It's a type of impersonation, like impersonating a doctor or a lawyer, only there are no laws against it.

Imagine, for a moment, that there is a man in your town purporting to do what you do, only he goes into schools and teaches some really, really fucked-up stuff. He's getting paid for it, making total bank, and he's really popular, but he's disseminating total misinformation, using your agency's name.

Like I said, I get the argument about the phonies selling phonies.  But it really felt like in a few places in this thread, or maybe it was one of the other ones, that people were getting mad at the buyers, and my thing with that is you don't know the intention of the buyer.  Many peole I know who like to have Native American things like to have them out of a deep respect for the culture.  It isn't to be some pretentious hipster dipshit.  So I get your argument, I just think it is important to not be too cynical and assume every personbuying this stuff is aninsensitive idiot.

That's actually the whole point of this thread. Right there. So I guess we're on the same page.

[Juana]

Jeezus, give the unquestioning cynicism a rest.  Is your glass ever half-full?

Actually, I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt. I generally assume that people don't mean to be insensitive because they don't realize how offensive whatever it is is.

At least there is some cultural curiousity there, even if it is naive.  It's a fuck ton better than isolationists.

What

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jeezus, give the unquestioning cynicism a rest.  Is your glass ever half-full?

What on earth is cynical about thinking that most people would rather not be offensive, and only do it out of a lack of awareness? 

[AFK]

Jeezus, give the unquestioning cynicism a rest.  Is your glass ever half-full?

What on earth is cynical about thinking that most people would rather not be offensive, and only do it out of a lack of awareness? 

The cynical bit is assuming everyone has buried prejudice that they have to struggle to control or work against. 

[Juana]

We live in a society full of prejudice. Little things we don't even question because they're "normal".

[AFK]

Ugh, sorry, your cynicism is just too thick, it's nauseating frankly. 

[Juana]

Right, and your insistence that YOUR experience with people you work with (who, if I may note, are probably the kind of people aware of subtle biases) is universally applicable, whereas there's scads and scads of literature that disagrees with you, is fucking obnoxious.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jeezus, give the unquestioning cynicism a rest.  Is your glass ever half-full?

What on earth is cynical about thinking that most people would rather not be offensive, and only do it out of a lack of awareness? 

The cynical bit is assuming everyone has buried prejudice that they have to struggle to control or work against.

Well, the available evidence shows that everyone who grows up in a culture that is full of embedded prejudices does absorb those prejudices to some extent, some moreso than others. This includes the people who are the victims of prejudice, and that has negative consequences for their self-image. You have heard of stereotype threat? That is only one example of a type of negative consequence.

Stereotype threat:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/opinion/sunday/intelligence-and-the-stereotype-threat.html?_r=0

Internalized racism:
http://jbs.sagepub.com/content/42/4/690.abstract

Some explorations on implicit (unconscious) prejudice and racism:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-implicit-prejudice
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/980930082237.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-suggest-racism-not-necessarily-perpetrated-ra
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/unconscious-racial-bias-shapes-trust-money/story?id=13437350#.ULqLxYU_1Gc
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/19/inside-the-racist-mind/
http://newamericamedia.org/2012/05/scholars-say-unconscious-bias-leads-to-discrimination.php
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/07.17/15-prejudice.html

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ugh, sorry, your cynicism is just too thick, it's nauseating frankly.

U trollin'? 

[AFK]

Right, and your insistence that YOUR experience with people you work with (who, if I may note, are probably the kind of people aware of subtle biases) is universally applicable, whereas there's scads and scads of literature that disagrees with you, is fucking obnoxious.

I've never claimed any kind of universality at all, my whole point is to counter the universality YOU have applied to everyone.  My point isn't that everyone is free of latent or buried prejudice.  My point is that not everyone is burdened with latent or buried prejudice. 

[Juana]

Oh FFS.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Right, and your insistence that YOUR experience with people you work with (who, if I may note, are probably the kind of people aware of subtle biases) is universally applicable, whereas there's scads and scads of literature that disagrees with you, is fucking obnoxious.

I've never claimed any kind of universality at all, my whole point is to counter the universality YOU have applied to everyone.  My point isn't that everyone is free of latent or buried prejudice.  My point is that not everyone is burdened with latent or buried prejudice.

Well, the available evidence shows that everyone who grows up in a culture that is full of embedded prejudices does absorb those prejudices to some extent, some moreso than others. This includes the people who are the victims of prejudice, and that has negative consequences for their self-image. You have heard of stereotype threat? That is only one example of a type of negative consequence.

Stereotype threat:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/opinion/sunday/intelligence-and-the-stereotype-threat.html?_r=0

Internalized racism:
http://jbs.sagepub.com/content/42/4/690.abstract

Some explorations on implicit (unconscious) prejudice and racism:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-implicit-prejudice
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/980930082237.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-suggest-racism-not-necessarily-perpetrated-ra
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/unconscious-racial-bias-shapes-trust-money/story?id=13437350#.ULqLxYU_1Gc
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/19/inside-the-racist-mind/
http://newamericamedia.org/2012/05/scholars-say-unconscious-bias-leads-to-discrimination.php
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/07.17/15-prejudice.html

[AFK]

You made the argument, don't grumble at me.  If you don't believe it is a universal say so.  Do you believe it is a universal in all people in our society, yes or no?

[AFK]

Right, and your insistence that YOUR experience with people you work with (who, if I may note, are probably the kind of people aware of subtle biases) is universally applicable, whereas there's scads and scads of literature that disagrees with you, is fucking obnoxious.

I've never claimed any kind of universality at all, my whole point is to counter the universality YOU have applied to everyone.  My point isn't that everyone is free of latent or buried prejudice.  My point is that not everyone is burdened with latent or buried prejudice.

Well, the available evidence shows that everyone who grows up in a culture that is full of embedded prejudices does absorb those prejudices to some extent, some moreso than others. This includes the people who are the victims of prejudice, and that has negative consequences for their self-image. You have heard of stereotype threat? That is only one example of a type of negative consequence.

Stereotype threat:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/opinion/sunday/intelligence-and-the-stereotype-threat.html?_r=0

Internalized racism:
http://jbs.sagepub.com/content/42/4/690.abstract

Some explorations on implicit (unconscious) prejudice and racism:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-implicit-prejudice
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/980930082237.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-suggest-racism-not-necessarily-perpetrated-ra
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/unconscious-racial-bias-shapes-trust-money/story?id=13437350#.ULqLxYU_1Gc
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/19/inside-the-racist-mind/
http://newamericamedia.org/2012/05/scholars-say-unconscious-bias-leads-to-discrimination.php
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/07.17/15-prejudice.html

Hey, guess what, I'm not a speed-reading robot.


Also, just so you know, the internalized racism one is an abstract, it would be more helpful if you posted the whole article, which I'm assuming you have read since you are offering it as evidence.