A few thoughts on the latest round of White Guilt discussions

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Nigel & Garbo:  I'm sorry about my behavior yesterday.  Having finally had some sleep, I'm more than a little mortified.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No apology necessary. Things get out of hand sometimes and misunderstandings happen. I'm sorry for not wording things better.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Watch the way white women act around black men sometimes, see how many of them clutch their purses or switch shoulders to keep the purse away. If you were to ask them if they were racist, they'd probably say no and that they actively fight against it.They just don't realize they're doing it.

And what do they do around other people? How many of those women also react the same when any man comes near, or any person at all for that matter.
If you are only looking at one thing it's easy to find what you want.

Uh, are you saying that black fear doesn't exist? 

It's incredibly well-studied and well-documented. Even BLACK people are more afraid of Black men then of white men. It's an issue which suffuses our entire culture.

Not at all. Just that you have to look and see if they react that way only with black people or with everyone.
I know full well that there is black (and other race) fear and prejudice out there. Wouldn't even try to pretend that there wasn't.

Who is "they", and what is your point? That some people don't have the culturally ingrained negative reaction? OK. I don't disagree.

[Sita]

Watch the way white women act around black men sometimes, see how many of them clutch their purses or switch shoulders to keep the purse away. If you were to ask them if they were racist, they'd probably say no and that they actively fight against it.They just don't realize they're doing it.

And what do they do around other people? How many of those women also react the same when any man comes near, or any person at all for that matter.
If you are only looking at one thing it's easy to find what you want.

Uh, are you saying that black fear doesn't exist? 

It's incredibly well-studied and well-documented. Even BLACK people are more afraid of Black men then of white men. It's an issue which suffuses our entire culture.

Not at all. Just that you have to look and see if they react that way only with black people or with everyone.
I know full well that there is black (and other race) fear and prejudice out there. Wouldn't even try to pretend that there wasn't.

Who is "they", and what is your point? That some people don't have the culturally ingrained negative reaction? OK. I don't disagree.

The women in Garbo's example of clutching their purses tighter or moving them.
And I think that is my point, that some don't have an ingrained negative reaction.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Watch the way white women act around black men sometimes, see how many of them clutch their purses or switch shoulders to keep the purse away. If you were to ask them if they were racist, they'd probably say no and that they actively fight against it.They just don't realize they're doing it.

And what do they do around other people? How many of those women also react the same when any man comes near, or any person at all for that matter.
If you are only looking at one thing it's easy to find what you want.

Uh, are you saying that black fear doesn't exist? 

It's incredibly well-studied and well-documented. Even BLACK people are more afraid of Black men then of white men. It's an issue which suffuses our entire culture.

Not at all. Just that you have to look and see if they react that way only with black people or with everyone.
I know full well that there is black (and other race) fear and prejudice out there. Wouldn't even try to pretend that there wasn't.

Who is "they", and what is your point? That some people don't have the culturally ingrained negative reaction? OK. I don't disagree.

The women in Garbo's example of clutching their purses tighter or moving them.
And I think that is my point, that some don't have an ingrained negative reaction.

So you're saying that the women in Garbo's example who do that out of culturally ingrained racism, which we know exists as a fact that is not under dispute, might not be doing it out of culturally ingrained racism, because some people don't? Even though the example was of women who do?

I'm sorry, that is the stupidest fucking point ever.

For the record, in America, all the available evidence indicates that the only people who don't have that culturally ingrained negative reaction are people who aren't from here and people who have consciously trained it out of themselves.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Including black men, in a horrible ironic twist.

[Sita]

Just that in the example given that it isn't a sure fact it's racially driven.
But then it could just be me and the fact that I would react that way no matter who the person was. If it's someone I don't know coming near me I will either move over some or hold my purse closer to my body.

But then I'm probably just not making any sense and have no point. Think I'll go back to lurking.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Watch the way white women act around black men sometimes, see how many of them clutch their purses or switch shoulders to keep the purse away. If you were to ask them if they were racist, they'd probably say no and that they actively fight against it.They just don't realize they're doing it.

And what do they do around other people? How many of those women also react the same when any man comes near, or any person at all for that matter.
If you are only looking at one thing it's easy to find what you want.

Uh, are you saying that black fear doesn't exist? 

It's incredibly well-studied and well-documented. Even BLACK people are more afraid of Black men then of white men. It's an issue which suffuses our entire culture.

Not at all. Just that you have to look and see if they react that way only with black people or with everyone.
I know full well that there is black (and other race) fear and prejudice out there. Wouldn't even try to pretend that there wasn't.

Who is "they", and what is your point? That some people don't have the culturally ingrained negative reaction? OK. I don't disagree.

The women in Garbo's example of clutching their purses tighter or moving them.
And I think that is my point, that some don't have an ingrained negative reaction.

So you're saying that the women in Garbo's example who do that out of culturally ingrained racism, which we know exists as a fact that is not under dispute, might not be doing it out of culturally ingrained racism, because some people don't? Even though the example was of women who do?

I'm sorry, that is the stupidest fucking point ever.

For the record, in America, all the available evidence indicates that the only people who don't have that culturally ingrained negative reaction are people who aren't from here and people who have consciously trained it out of themselves.

So much THIS.

There is a TON of shit like this you have to train yourself out of. And just when you think you found it all, some other little thing will come into your awareness.

[Dildo Argentino]

I don't think I belong here, anymore.

Put on your big boy pants, dude. This is not gonna be a good century for people who give up so easily. Besides, who gives a flying ratfuck if anyone is offended? IMO that's their fucking problem.

At this point (reading up on my backlog, halfway through) I am not sure it's in my best interest to have to say this, but this is so right. I salute it mightily.

[Dildo Argentino]

You can indulge in self-righteous purity, or you can accomplish things.  You have to decide.

That puts me in mind of two bon mots I know.

One's from my stepmum. She says you're alright if you know what compromises you have made and you think they are alright.

The other, a particularly Discordian quote to my mind, is spoken in a Hungarian film by on old crone whose young adult granddaughter has picked up a fella and dragged him home:

"There's just two stupid things you can do in life: insisting on your principles and dumping all over them."

In other words, I guess, as far as I can see, a balance is required that allows one to look in the mirror.

[Dildo Argentino]

There is a TON of shit like this you have to train yourself out of. And just when you think you found it all, some other little thing will come into your awareness.

That's amazing.

In my family, somehow, without being too 'aware' or reflective about it, race was never considered a characteristic to build value judgments on. As a result, this sort of thinking was not ingrained in me, and when I encountered it, I, like my parents, found it faintly repugnant and somehow depressing even in its mildest manifestations, and most vehemently not okay if it went any further than that. Poor Americans.

[Juana]

Nigel & Garbo:  I'm sorry about my behavior yesterday.  Having finally had some sleep, I'm more than a little mortified.

No worries. I was no saint, either, yesterday.

It seems like RWHN is talking about an ally as a promoter of a cause in practical/logistical terms ("the muscle of the operation"), whereas Garbo is talking about an ally as a person who truly understands the cause, and subsequently works to improve themselves and their behavior based on that understanding.

Both are people working to forward the cause, but each definition of ally has different conditions.

I guess you could make that argument. I feel like that's the difference between LIKE'ing something and really working to make change, though. Those little behaviors perpetuate the very problems we want to solve.

Watch the way white women act around black men sometimes, see how many of them clutch their purses or switch shoulders to keep the purse away. If you were to ask them if they were racist, they'd probably say no and that they actively fight against it.They just don't realize they're doing it.

And what do they do around other people? How many of those women also react the same when any man comes near, or any person at all for that matter.
If you are only looking at one thing it's easy to find what you want.

Sure, some white ladies/females are gonna do it around everybody, but a lot of them are going to do it far, far more consistently around black men (our culture portrays them as violent thieves, after all). Ask a couple black dudes. I'm sure they'll tell you that white women tend to clutch their purses when walking near them, even though they're just brushing shoulders in the mall.
And also, in relation to a comment you made down thread from this one, this sort of thing isn't punishing women/females for thinking about self defense. On the contrary, it's analyzing the situation more closely than "black guy nearby = I need to be scared".

[AFK]

I think that is a key and maybe why I don't buy into this idea that everyone has all of these layers and need to really work on not being a bigoted asshole.  It certainly has never been an issue for me, and I've always gravitated to being completely open to other cultures, minorities, etc.  My prejudice has always simply been with idiots and morons and those come in all shapes, sizes, colors, etc.,  But I wasn't raised in a family or an environment where there was all of this underlying racism and prejudice.  I grew up with the values of openness and inclusiveness.  And I think there are many out in the world who have this same experience.  For sure, someone who was brought up in a racist context or environment probably will have some work to do to obtain and maintain clarity of thought, but it surely isn't everyone, and without looking into one's heart and mind, it is honestly fairly rude and offensive to claim to know otherwise.

[Juana]

I think that is a key and maybe why I don't buy into this idea that everyone has all of these layers and need to really work on not being a bigoted asshole.  It certainly has never been an issue for me, and I've always gravitated to being completely open to other cultures, minorities, etc.  My prejudice has always simply been with idiots and morons and those come in all shapes, sizes, colors, etc.,  But I wasn't raised in a family or an environment where there was all of this underlying racism and prejudice.  I grew up with the values of openness and inclusiveness.  And I think there are many out in the world who have this same experience.  For sure, someone who was brought up in a racist context or environment probably will have some work to do to obtain and maintain clarity of thought, but it surely isn't everyone, and without looking into one's heart and mind, it is honestly fairly rude and offensive to claim to know otherwise.

Your family might have been that way, and that sure as fuck helps, but the society you live in - the memes you are bathed in from cradle to grave in every form of human interaction - is fucking bigoted. You pick those up, whether you like it or not, and you have to actively remove them.

[AFK]

You don't know anything about me, about my environment, about the context I grew up in, about what is in my mind, in my heart.  It's a baseless, and I will say, yes, prejudicial assumption.  I think you maybe need to work a little harder on training yourself out of your prejudice.