A few thoughts on the latest round of White Guilt discussions

[Juana]

You don't know anything about me, about my environment, about the context I grew up in, about what is in my mind, in my heart.  It's a baseless, and I will say, yes, prejudicial assumption.  I think you maybe need to work a little harder on training yourself out of your prejudice.

I know what wider culture you grew up in because it's the same as mine. Do you deny the fact that we get a lot of bad signal from our culture?

[AFK]

I deny the assumption that everyone soaks it up like a hapless sponge.

[Dildo Argentino]

I deny the assumption that everyone soaks it up like a hapless sponge.

Yesssss.

Sorrey.

[Juana]

I deny the assumption that everyone soaks it up like a hapless sponge.

Everyone soaks a good portion of it up like a hapless sponge. Especially when we're little (which is why having a minimally bigoted family is enormously helpful).

[AFK]

And you know this how?  I mean, besides it being a belief, do you have any evidence to back up the idea that EVERYONE soaks this stuff up?

[Juana]

Observation and I know something about socialization (the method by which one learns the norms and rules of one's society, which starts pretty quickly after birth). Parents can direct the process, but can't have 100% control over it unless they are the ONLY social interactions their kid ever has and they never expose their child to media.

Where the hell do you get the idea that most people can avoid picking up the bad signal? Why do you think most people are have shitty beliefs? How do you think racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. perpetuate?

[AFK]

Where the hell do you get the idea that you have the ability to decide how "most" people are? 

[Juana]

Uh, I know what kind of society we live in and what kind of people it raises. And again, I get socialization.

[AFK]

It's clear that you seem to think that you do.  Keep in mind, people aren't books, they aren't meat-robots.  Humans are a bit more complex than you give credit, and that includes the fact that there are many have the resiliency and awareness to either re-program, or understand when signal is bad and when to ignore it, or at least, note it for what it is.  We are not all hapless sponges.

[Juana]

[Juana]

Do you think photographers mean to be insensitive when they pose white women in submissive positions or put WoC in racist, predatory poses? Or that people meant to be racist when they called Michelle Obama an angry black woman? That those purse-clutching white ladies realize what they're doing and how it hurts black men? That men mean to be insensitive when they white knight the ladies? Or that everyone realizes what a slur "tranny" is?
Of course they don't. They don't realize they're spitting out memes that are offensive because those memes have been so normalized.

[AFK]

Yes, but what I'm telling you is that not everyone in the world is a bleeting moron, completely oblivious to that shit.  And you aren't going to change a lick of any of that if you automatically indict everyone.  Who the fuck would want to be your ally if you are simultaneously insulting them and labelling them? 

[Juana]

I never said they *were* a bleeting moron. I said they're products of their society, just like you and I are. But change is possible; it just takes a fuck ton of work because "normal" is frequently "shitty".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I deny the assumption that everyone soaks it up like a hapless sponge.

Everyone soaks a good portion of it up like a hapless sponge. Especially when we're little (which is why having a minimally bigoted family is enormously helpful).

That's what babies and children are designed to do. Then when we get older we start questioning bits and pieces. But there are always bits and pieces we haven't questioned yet. It's hard to question things you aren't aware of, and a lot of our cultural programming is invisible to us, because it's our "normal".

[AFK]

I never said they *were* a bleeting moron. I said they're products of their society, just like you and I are. But change is possible; it just takes a fuck ton of work because "normal" is frequently "shitty".

It doesn't take any work for me at all but I also don't think I'm a special snowflake and know there are plenty like me in society.  For me normal is equality, people are individuals and should be judged and respected as such.  It's plain as day and has been for as long as I can remember. I know I'm not alone or special in this.