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Morality, part I of V

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
Yeah, so we're using drones for domestic surveilance, and also for blowing people into cat meat on the other side of the planet.  I can think of any number of things wrong with this, and so can you...But there's one BIG thing wrong with it that - in my opinion - makes it something beyond "odious".  In fact, "monstrous" would be the right word.

Just as with torture, the problem with drones is the effect it has on the operators of the drones and also on the nation as a whole.  It's brutality by remote control.

Sometimes brutality is in fact called for...Whether the situation in Pakistan actually calls for brutality is another argument, to be dealt with elsewhere.   Thing is, when brutality is dished out by proxy (torture) or by remote control (drones), it suddenly becomes just another day.  We become desensitized to it.  It becomes acceptable.  In world war II, they referred to this condition as "bombadier's eyes"...When you kill from 20,000 feet up, it's not really "killing", and human life loses all of its value. 

In fact, before long it becomes the FIRST solution to a problem...As Terry Pratchett has pointed out, "If you do something wrong for a good reason, soon you'll do it for a bad reason."

It's also easy.  What this means is that suddenly the ends justify the means, which is basic human morality stood on its head.  The ends never justify the means.  Any person who forgets that becomes evil, sure as night follows day, and any nation that forgets that becomes an abomination.

Not that we had far to fall, of course, as any remaining Cherokee can tell you.  Or any Black person, Chinese person, or any of the other groups whose bones form the foundation of this country...But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.

And that, I think, is the critical flaw in American morality.  Precedent allows any monstrosity.

Thomas Jefferson once said, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just".

I can see what he meant.

Or Kill Me.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

#1
February 19, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
100% truth.

Death is sanitized these days. It's kind of like those sausage labels with smiling cartoon pigs, only it's people and we're doing it for DEMOCRACY(TM).

Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

#2
February 19, 2013, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on February 19, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
100% truth.

Death is sanitized these days. It's kind of like those sausage labels with smiling cartoon pigs, only it's people and we're doing it for DEMOCRACY(TM).

:horrormirth:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#3
February 19, 2013, 04:17:44 PM
By the way, this series was inspired by Cain's stuff in the political area.

Next one is about financial fuckery.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Elder Iptuous

#4
February 19, 2013, 05:33:37 PM
i read yesterday that drone pilots are getting derision for not being 'actual war fighters' from civilians and from the boots on the ground soldiers, but that they are getting PTSD in high numbers.  (hell, i read that facebook image filtering employees get PTSD.)  it must be a helluva mindfuck blowing up a funeral procession and then heading home to your wife and children for dinner.  day after day.
but there's a new medal for the drone pilots:

So that should fix the psychological damage, right?  i mean, you don't get medals for doing the Wrong Thing, right?

The Good Reverend Roger

#5
February 19, 2013, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 19, 2013, 05:33:37 PM
i read yesterday that drone pilots are getting derision for not being 'actual war fighters' from civilians and from the boots on the ground soldiers, but that they are getting PTSD in high numbers.  (hell, i read that facebook image filtering employees get PTSD.)  it must be a helluva mindfuck blowing up a funeral procession and then heading home to your wife and children for dinner.  day after day.
but there's a new medal for the drone pilots:

So that should fix the psychological damage, right?  i mean, you don't get medals for doing the Wrong Thing, right?

Medals make it worse.  They are a tangible reminder that you may never again sleep the sleep of the just.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#6
February 19, 2013, 06:12:48 PM
In fact, they are a mark placed on you by the military, to remind you that you are theirs for the rest of your days, no matter how long you live after you leave the service.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Elder Iptuous

#7
February 19, 2013, 06:45:46 PM
yeah, i was being facetious about them making it better, but i hadn't thought about them actually making it worse.
even when these kids are old and retired, they'll wake up in the morning and open their sock drawer to get dressed, and there's the memory of pushbutton flowers blooming in a crowd of civilians half a world away...

The Good Reverend Roger

#8
February 19, 2013, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 19, 2013, 06:45:46 PM
yeah, i was being facetious about them making it better, but i hadn't thought about them actually making it worse.
even when these kids are old and retired, they'll wake up in the morning and open their sock drawer to get dressed, and there's the memory of pushbutton flowers blooming in a crowd of civilians half a world away...

The HEALTHY ones are the ones that pitch their medals over the White House fence. 

The ones that keep them are either the ones who never stopped believing the lies, or those who keep them for self-flagellation purposes.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#9
February 19, 2013, 07:56:09 PM
This is heavy stuff, Roger. And good.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

The Good Reverend Roger

#10
February 19, 2013, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 19, 2013, 07:56:09 PM
This is heavy stuff, Roger. And good.

Thanks.  Cain got me thinking.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Ben Shapiro

#11
February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.


THIS!

I wish we would could turn all those nuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.

The Good Reverend Roger

#12
February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.


THIS!

I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.

Not me.  Nuclear weapons ended global war.  I LIKE them.

"Grow up or die."

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

insideout

#13
February 19, 2013, 08:20:32 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PMAnd that, I think, is the critical flaw in American morality.  Precedent allows any monstrosity.
Our American justice system is based more on the credibility of the testimony than it is on the rightness or wrongness of the action.  Precedent is one way of establishing credibility, since you can discredit something in the eyes of many by saying that it's never been done that way before.

If someone gets murdered, and the witness is a known crack addict, and the murderer is a police officer that has no blemishes on his reputation, guess who will get punished?  The Police officer with no previous blemishes will have an easy time establishing his credibility and getting off scot free for the murder, and the crack addict will not be taken seriously by anyone, and could well get the murder rap pinned on his shoulders.

Justice doesn't matter, but credibility does, and precedent can establish credibility.

This has been my opinion for years, and so far, I've not seen it proven wrong.

Ben Shapiro

#14
February 19, 2013, 08:21:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.


THIS!

I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.

Not me.  Nuclear weapons ended global war.  I LIKE them.

"Grow up or die."

What's stopping America from making new ones?
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