Your Daily Dose of Happy Facts

[Elder Iptuous]

apple employees have it pretty good compared to the agriculture and mining slaves from what i'm reading.
they actually get paid, for one thing, afaik.
also, they aren't threatened with violence for leaving afaik.

as far as greed being the root cause of slavery, i would agree, but would comment that we aren't going to be able to get rid of that, however, it seems reasonable that we can still go far in reducing slavery, never the less... (legislation and enforcement being the vehicle)

[LMNO]

Tangentially relevant:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/02/25/the_european_horse_meat_scandal_it_is_your_fault.html

Most of you (and almost all the Europeans) will have heard of the current scandal in European agribusiness relating to the misrepresentation of horse flesh as beef or other meat products, most often, but not exclusively, in ready meals and the like.

The potential motive for a meat supplier to do this is not hard to guess; it is a far cheaper product than beef, pork or lamb, and while it has a distinctive taste on its own, it is not so vastly different from beef that a blend of beef and horse would taste "unusual." Especially in something like a burger, which is going to be slathered in sauces anyway, let alone as part of a lasagna. I personally don't mind the thought of it and enjoy the taste. I'm very far from alone in this, but there are many cultures where horseflesh is taboo and  whether or not you are eating Black Beauty isn't really the point. The point is that you are eating a product that claims to be one thing (beef) and is in fact a very different one (horse). "Beef" is generally a protected description around the world, with various controls and standards and so on. While it isn't true to say that the trade in horseflesh is completely unregulated, it is safe to say that meat that isn't meant to be there in the first place, has not passed any standards, except - hopefully - that it is dead.

Proof of this, were it required, is provided by the recent discovery of the animal painkiller bute or Phenylbutazone in the human food chain. While I do not especially doubt the chief medical officer in the article cited when she says the risk is "low," bute is most definitely the sort of thing that will ruin your day (including by possibly bringing it to an unanticipated end) should you eat enough of it.

So we have the why, the how is something that unfolds daily like some awful origami, how is it your fault? Or more accurately, our fault?

This is satisfyingly straightforward: we asked for it.

No,  we did not, naturally, waltz into our local supermarket and ask to be lied to, fed dangerous chemicals and fraudulently sold food that may be against our deep personal and/or religious principles to consume.

But as consumers, we have consistently said that price is our single most important consideration when it comes to grocery shopping. It isn't only food of course: We expect pairs of jeans at impossibly cheap prices, most of us now balk at spending more than a few dollars or euros for socks for example. Lawnmowers, televisions and DVD players, garden furniture, power tools and camping equipment—we expect pricing that anyone with a calculator and half a brain can see does not make economic sense.

On the infrequent occasions when we think about it at all, we tell ourselves that this is due to economies of scale. Or we drink the Kool-Aid and buy into the press-puff-pieces about the latest brilliant advance in logistics efficiency. With very few exceptions, there are no such new advances, they all depend on slave—or at best, unethical—labor, and corn ers cutsomewhere along the line.

But nowhere is the contrast between the cost of production and the price we pay as blindingly obvious as in the case of food.

Do you really think it is possible to bring an individual burger to market for 20 cents (in euros) retail? Given how labor and capital-intensive farming is? Given the high costs associated with transporting food? Here is a provoking account of how the costs of that "20 cent" burger breakdown (or rather how they don't).

The answer of course is that it isn't. In the case of the food examples above, the large multiples squeeze their suppliers until their ribs crack and they in turn squeeze their suppliers (farmers and the like) until there simply is no more to give. Because if they don't, we consumers will go to a supermarket that will. There is a reason the likes of Tescos, ASDA, etc., spend so much money telling us that their milk is 2 cents cheaper than the competition: because that is how price-sensitive we are as consumers.

And like weeds in the cracks of a pavement, here the unscrupulous (or the desperate) suppliers flourish. I can close my eyes and hear how they would justify it— it is all meat, they love it in France and Slovenia, etc.


You buy your food so cheaply because, bluntly, it isn't what you think it is or it hasn't been produced with the sort of health safeguards you think are in place.

So your "beef" is pork or horse or dog or some damn thing. Wake up and smell the free-trade coffee (produced in horrific, slavery conditions but by a company whose name is registered in the Cayman Islands as "Free Trade Coffee," because you know, truth in advertising).

Of course you could always shop local, support your local grocery supplier or butcher. If you can find one anymore. You and I didn't want them, you see.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

apple employees have it pretty good compared to the agriculture and mining slaves from what i'm reading.

From Wikipedia:

In 2006, the Mail on Sunday reported on the working conditions that existed at factories in China where the contract manufacturers Foxconn and Inventec produced the iPod.[261] The article stated that one complex of factories that assembles the iPod (among other items) had over 200,000 workers that lived and worked in the factory, with employees regularly working more than 60 hours per week. The article also reported that workers made around $100 per month and were required to live on site, pay for rent, and food from the company, which generally amounted to a little over half of workers' earnings.

Ever heard the song "I owe my soul to the company store?"

Apple immediately launched an investigation and worked with their manufacturers to ensure acceptable working conditions.[265] In 2007, Apple started yearly audits of all its suppliers regarding worker's rights, slowly raising standards and pruning suppliers that did not comply. Yearly progress reports have been published since 2008.[266] In 2010, workers in China planned to sue iPhone contractors over poisoning by a cleaner used to clean LCD screens. One worker claimed that he and his coworkers had not been informed of possible occupational illnesses.[267]

Sounds great, right?  OOPS.

In 2011 Apple admitted that its suppliers' child labor practices in China had worsened.[270]

Also:

Workers in factories producing Apple products have also been exposed to n-hexane, a neurotoxin that is a cheaper alternative than alcohol for cleaning the products.[271][272][273]

And here's the BEST part:

After a spate of suicides in a Foxconn facility in China making iPads and iPhones, albeit at a lower rate than in China as a whole,[268] workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves.[269]

Well, that settles it.  They aren't slaves.

[Cain]

Penal slavery is legal in most of the world.

In fact, penal slavery in the USA was the means by which slavery was allowed to continue.  It's no coincidence that penal slavery took off after "normal" slavery was made illegal, or that the race of most penal slaves in the 19th century was African-American (and gosh, just look at the jail and unemployment rates for blacks versus whites in the US...).

Also, I'm fairly sure in parts of the USA, slavery is still ongoing, and the police won't do anything.  The police chief is normally in his position due to friendship with and the support of local political actors.  Politics is a pursuit for people with money.  People with money own businesses.  Businesses profit more when they can underpay workers who, as an example, are in a country illegally, and when the police will be used to enforce discipline on the labourers.  Whatever we may wish the police were in theory, they are, in fact, enforcers for the existing political order, and that political order profits from slavery in many ways.

[Elder Iptuous]

Roger, that is certainly some 16 tons shit there. i don't deny that it really needs improvement, but from what i'm reading, there's a shit ton of people that are in situations where they don't even get the disney bucks to buy from the company store, and they are told that if they talk, or run, they will be shot.  or their families will be hurt.  significantly more fucked up... 
also heard on NPR that the east coast china job market is changing lately, and that people are leaving the FOXCONN places in significant numbers and that there is competition for labor now.  don't know the truth of the current situation, but....

Cain, i was just hearing about the reeducation labor camps in china yesterday, and the efforts to stop them.  pretty crazy.  some lady interviewed saying how she petitioned the local party leader over some eminent domain issue, and he stuck her in there to work for years.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Slavery only counts if you list the MOST egregious cases, instead of some of the most frequent cases.

Yeah, leaving this thread now.

[Elder Iptuous]

i'm not disagreeing with you... 
it's fucked up.  my point was: I knew there was de facto slavery in places like the Foxconn plants.  it's bad, and needs to change.  i also knew there was severe slavery where there is zero pay, no choice to leave, and direct violence.  I didn't, however, know the extent to which that stuff existed until i saw this thread.

ETA: or that there is significant honest-to-god shackles type slavery here in the states.

that's all i was saying, Roger.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

i'm not disagreeing with you... 

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

[LMNO]

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

Shakespear's genius will never die.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Whether you are forced to stay because some asshole will whip, beat, or fire guns at you if you try to leave; or because the economic realities of leaving means you will be left homeless and destitute; you're a slave either way.

[Juana]

Penal slavery is legal in most of the world.

In fact, penal slavery in the USA was the means by which slavery was allowed to continue.  It's no coincidence that penal slavery took off after "normal" slavery was made illegal, or that the race of most penal slaves in the 19th century was African-American (and gosh, just look at the jail and unemployment rates for blacks versus whites in the US...).

Also, I'm fairly sure in parts of the USA, slavery is still ongoing, and the police won't do anything.  The police chief is normally in his position due to friendship with and the support of local political actors.  Politics is a pursuit for people with money.  People with money own businesses.  Businesses profit more when they can underpay workers who, as an example, are in a country illegally, and when the police will be used to enforce discipline on the labourers.  Whatever we may wish the police were in theory, they are, in fact, enforcers for the existing political order, and that political order profits from slavery in many ways.

Penal slavery is still basically a thing and always has been, because it's incredibly profitable for the people who own the prisons. They just get like 10c an hour or some insanely low wage. There's also the way we exploit undocumented immigrants/field laborers (eg, paying them in produce*, calling immigration right before paying time, and the like).

*I only have anecdotal evidence for this, but believe me it happens.

Whether you are forced to stay because some asshole will whip, beat, or fire guns at you if you try to leave; or because the economic realities of leaving means you will be left homeless and destitute; you're a slave either way.

Wage slavery. It's a thing.

[Elder Iptuous]

i'm not disagreeing with you... 

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

i'm not disagreeing with you... 

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

All I know is that I was trying to build up to a point about the economic underpinnings of slavery, and now we're talking about what constitutes "real slavery" or "worse slavery".

My point is smashed totally flat.  I'm not saying "FUCK YOUUUUUUU", I'm just saying there is no point in my continuing, because I can't fucking remember what I was going to say.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

WHERE'S THE 'LIKE' BUTTON

Actually having a lot of complete and utter shit lowers my standard of living, from my point of view.