Conquest of the Planet of the Bride of the Son of the Return of the Open Bar

[The Good Reverend Roger]

ECH, not that I think poorly of you, but it must be asked, if only to be put aside:


ARE you cheating?

Doesn't really have much relevance, for the same reason we (supposedly) require warrants for searches in a legal sense.  The ends do not justify the means; the result does not justify the bad act.

I'm gonna debate that. I was at my wits end, going completely crazy, and had asked my husband over and over again what on earth was going on because everything felt JUST NOT RIGHT and he kept telling me that there was nothing. I finally lost it and looked at his email, and discovered that he was not only cheating, but that it had been going on for a while and that he was hooking up with people off Craigslist on a regular basis, sometimes in our house while I was gone, with the kids asleep in the house. Not only total strangers, but a risk to me and my kids.

Do the ends justify the means? I think that question doesn't even apply in a situation that messy, with lives that intertwined and with that many levels of shit going on. If I'd found nothing, I would have confessed and we would have ended up in counseling either way because shit was falling apart. It had to be bad for me to go to that kind of extreme.

On the other hand, snooping a boyfriend or girlfriend's phone because you "feel insecure" is just wrong, and I don't think it's a habit that can easily be trained out of someone. If they do it once, on some level they feel like their insecurity trumps your privacy, and that means they'll keep on doing it, and it will probably get worse.

Having lived with someone who would do shit like search my backpack when I wasn't looking, I am very sensitive to it. But I don't think that it's as simple to dismiss as "the end justifying the means" because in some cases, by the time a scrupulous person gets to that point, especially in a committed long-term partnership, something is very very wrong.

Okay, I can see that.  If there's probable cause to look, that's one thing.  But over an insecurity?  Naw.

[navkat]

If you are cheating, actually are cheating, and your other finds out you have bigger things to worry about beyond the snooping because you've already betrayed the other person.

If I DID snoop, which I wouldn't, and I found out some bad shit I would feel no remorse. Because they were a bigger asshole.

That's not the same as The Ends Justify The Means, it means You Cheated You Motherfucker, La La I can't hear you.

At that point its not about justification, its about a broken heart. The damage is done.

"I don't wanna hear about it. You were planning to leave behind my back, right?"

"Yeah, but that's my..."

"NO-HOHHH! Were you or were you NOT planning to leave?"

"That's not the..."

"Answer the fucking question! It's a simple yes or no question! Yes or no? That's all I wanna hear out of you! I already know the answer, I just wanna hear YOU say it."

But you...

OHHHH!!! You can't do it, can you? You can't answer a simple fucking question! Are you stupid? Are you hard of hearing? Do you need me to repeat the question? You need me to repeat the question, Jenn? Huh?"

Yeah, I know all about self-righteous "La la, I can't hear you." Everyone thinks they have a good reason for the fucked up shit they do. The problem is, when you get into the business of crossing lines and justifying that, it becomes a slippery slope of perspectives and perpetual shittiness.

Don't get into the business of being a turd. I've made a fuckton of mistakes in my relationships but the only things I ever regret are ones where I've either crossed one of my own integrity lines or allowed them to cross mine. Take this from someone still digging her way out of a nightmare. The bars on my cage are alternating columns of hopelessness and obliterated self-esteem and the padlock on the hasp is my own guilt for shit I did that makes me little better. If they are
doing you dirty, you being a dick back becomes a tool with which they will manipulate your broken heart into giving them another chance since "now you're even." It's a giant pit-trap full of excrement. Don't get in and grab a shovel.

If I could hop in the Delorean and go back to fix my shit, I'd kick my own ass and say the same things I'm saying now. The moment you start crossing lines too instead of severing yourself with your integrity still intact, you give them a partial right to posses a part of you because now they get to hold you accountable for something...and if you have any kind of conscience or empathy, this is more compelling than you'd ever believe.

[navkat]

ECH, not that I think poorly of you, but it must be asked, if only to be put aside:


ARE you cheating?

Doesn't really have much relevance, for the same reason we (supposedly) require warrants for searches in a legal sense.  The ends do not justify the means; the result does not justify the bad act.

I'm gonna debate that. I was at my wits end, going completely crazy, and had asked my husband over and over again what on earth was going on because everything felt JUST NOT RIGHT and he kept telling me that there was nothing. I finally lost it and looked at his email, and discovered that he was not only cheating, but that it had been going on for a while and that he was hooking up with people off Craigslist on a regular basis, sometimes in our house while I was gone, with the kids asleep in the house. Not only total strangers, but a risk to me and my kids.

Do the ends justify the means? I think that question doesn't even apply in a situation that messy, with lives that intertwined and with that many levels of shit going on. If I'd found nothing, I would have confessed and we would have ended up in counseling either way because shit was falling apart. It had to be bad for me to go to that kind of extreme.

On the other hand, snooping a boyfriend or girlfriend's phone because you "feel insecure" is just wrong, and I don't think it's a habit that can easily be trained out of someone. If they do it once, on some level they feel like their insecurity trumps your privacy, and that means they'll keep on doing it, and it will probably get worse.

Having lived with someone who would do shit like search my backpack when I wasn't looking, I am very sensitive to it. But I don't think that it's as simple to dismiss as "the end justifying the means" because in some cases, by the time a scrupulous person gets to that point, especially in a committed long-term partnership, something is very very wrong.

Yeah, that's admittedly more complex. I'd say this:

Not only total strangers, but a risk to me and my kids.

is the delineating factor. And:

It had to be bad for me to go to that kind of extreme.

Sounds like a good rule of thumb.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

WHO'S GOT TWO THUMBS AND TWELVE BOXES FULL OF COOKIES FOR THE POST OFFICE?

[Junkenstein]

This is the only good thing to come out of that thread.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I didn't know that he was inviting strange men from Craigslist to my house. I didn't know WHAT was going on. All I knew was that things weren't right, on some massive level that I couldn't comprehend. I mean, there were little things... like, what is this washcloth doing in his car? Why does he want me to go out for the evening, and why does he care so much about when I'll be back? Why does he keep leaving at odd times? Why is he acting so strange?

But there was nothing that really "justified" me looking at his email, other than my inner sense that something was horribly awry.

I'm just saying that yeah, it's not always a black-and-white situation.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

WHO'S GOT TWO THUMBS AND TWELVE BOXES FULL OF COOKIES FOR THE POST OFFICE?

WHOOHOOOOO!!!

[navkat]

WHO'S GOT TWO THUMBS AND TWELVE BOXES FULL OF COOKIES FOR THE POST OFFICE?

Even better than TWELVE thumbs and TWO boxes of cookies!

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

WHO'S GOT TWO THUMBS AND TWELVE BOXES FULL OF COOKIES FOR THE POST OFFICE?

Even better than TWELVE thumbs and TWO boxes of cookies!

TOO MANY THUMBS

[The Good Reverend Roger]

WHO'S GOT TWO THUMBS AND TWELVE BOXES FULL OF COOKIES FOR THE POST OFFICE?

HOT DAMN

[Salty]

If you are cheating, actually are cheating, and your other finds out you have bigger things to worry about beyond the snooping because you've already betrayed the other person.

If I DID snoop, which I wouldn't, and I found out some bad shit I would feel no remorse. Because they were a bigger asshole.

That's not the same as The Ends Justify The Means, it means You Cheated You Motherfucker, La La I can't hear you.

At that point its not about justification, its about a broken heart. The damage is done.

"I don't wanna hear about it. You were planning to leave behind my back, right?"

"Yeah, but that's my..."

"NO-HOHHH! Were you or were you NOT planning to leave?"

"That's not the..."

"Answer the fucking question! It's a simple yes or no question! Yes or no? That's all I wanna hear out of you! I already know the answer, I just wanna hear YOU say it."

But you...

OHHHH!!! You can't do it, can you? You can't answer a simple fucking question! Are you stupid? Are you hard of hearing? Do you need me to repeat the question? You need me to repeat the question, Jenn? Huh?"

Yeah, I know all about self-righteous "La la, I can't hear you." Everyone thinks they have a good reason for the fucked up shit they do. The problem is, when you get into the business of crossing lines and justifying that, it becomes a slippery slope of perspectives and perpetual shittiness.

Don't get into the business of being a turd. I've made a fuckton of mistakes in my relationships but the only things I ever regret are ones where I've either crossed one of my own integrity lines or allowed them to cross mine. Take this from someone still digging her way out of a nightmare. The bars on my cage are alternating columns of hopelessness and obliterated self-esteem and the padlock on the hasp is my own guilt for shit I did that makes me little better. If they are
doing you dirty, you being a dick back becomes a tool with which they will manipulate your broken heart into giving them another chance since "now you're even." It's a giant pit-trap full of excrement. Don't get in and grab a shovel.

If I could hop in the Delorean and go back to fix my shit, I'd kick my own ass and say the same things I'm saying now. The moment you start crossing lines too instead of severing yourself with your integrity still intact, you give them a partial right to posses a part of you because now they get to hold you accountable for something...and if you have any kind of conscience or empathy, this is more compelling than you'd ever believe.

All right. I'm not really arguing what you think I'm arguing. If I found out someone was cheating on me through nefarious ways I wouldnt actually taunt them, I'd just end it

Jesus.

[Salty]

Also, nobody manipulates this guy into going anywhere. I have a very explicit, unbreakable Do Never Go Back Rule, which I have only broken once, to.my enduring detriment.

[navkat]

I didn't know that he was inviting strange men from Craigslist to my house. I didn't know WHAT was going on. All I knew was that things weren't right, on some massive level that I couldn't comprehend. I mean, there were little things... like, what is this washcloth doing in his car? Why does he want me to go out for the evening, and why does he care so much about when I'll be back? Why does he keep leaving at odd times? Why is he acting so strange?

But there was nothing that really "justified" me looking at his email, other than my inner sense that something was horribly awry.

I'm just saying that yeah, it's not always a black-and-white situation.

If I take no other lesson from this mess when I'm finally healed, I hope it's that I never again allow myself to get hooked into a situation with someone again where I can't easily just bolt as soon as something's feels off.

I never thought there could ever possibly be anything worse than not knowing but there is: Finding out for certain what a horrible person they are and being unable to easily untangle yourself and/or knowing that they will never feel guilty or get their come-uppance is a constant burn that eventually eats through your faith in concepts like "justice," burns you out and robs you of your will to keep pushing. It kills even your sense of self-preservation after a certain point.

I ever get in a relationship again and the dude starts going through my shit, I hope to christ I've finally got the self-discipline and personal empowerment to vomit that boy and his belongings onto the sidewalk before the screen has a chance to timeout.

[navkat]

If I found out someone was cheating on me through nefarious ways I wouldnt actually taunt them, I'd just end it

Jesus.

I'm not saying you would. I think you misunderstand. I'm saying that everyone feels justified in acting shitty when they feel slighted but acting on it and feeling righteous about it indicates a certain level of possessiveness. I mean, whatever your reasons, you're describing a certain level of entitlement to inflict.

PLEEEEASE don't take that the wrong way. The example I used was more severe for a reason, and only to raise the point about how blurry the lines can be.And I don't think it'd make you a person who would go around hurting people. Also, after reading Nigel's anecdote, I admit, I can see how these things aren't always cut-and-dried but Nigel did say it was extreme, she wasn't happy with herself for doing it and if she'd come up empty, she'd still have seen it as a sign of sickness in the relationship on both their parts. That's the most clearly defined part of that to me: spying on people is fucked up and that fact isn't relative.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If I found out someone was cheating on me through nefarious ways I wouldnt actually taunt them, I'd just end it

Jesus.

I'm not saying you would. I think you misunderstand. I'm saying that everyone feels justified in acting shitty when they feel slighted but acting on it and feeling righteous about it indicates a certain level of possessiveness. I mean, whatever your reasons, you're describing a certain level of entitlement to inflict.

PLEEEEASE don't take that the wrong way. The example I used was more severe for a reason, and only to raise the point about how blurry the lines can be.And I don't think it'd make you a person who would go around hurting people. Also, after reading Nigel's anecdote, I admit, I can see how these things aren't always cut-and-dried but Nigel did say it was extreme, she wasn't happy with herself for doing it and if she'd come up empty, she'd still have seen it as a sign of sickness in the relationship on both their parts. That's the most clearly defined part of that to me: spying on people is fucked up and that fact isn't relative.

Balls.  If there's apparently a clear and present danger to yourself and/or your offspring, then a whole lot suddenly becomes okay, because you are no longer talking about snooping or ethics, you are talking about a clear and present danger.

It's not the ends justifying the means at that point, it's self-preservation.  If you honestly can't tell the difference between the situation you were in and the situation Nigel was in, perhaps you need to take a few minutes and review the two situations again.