Tennessee getting ready to throw poor students under the bus.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

And I think one hand lathers the other. Once we're all lubed up and accept drug testing as the norm, the less there is to go 'round of the assistance money because it's going to pay the labs, the easier it is to rile up the opposition to collect MORE taxes to pump up the assistance programs because the portion the needy actually see is inadequate. Nobody goes back and says "Wait a minute now, let's audit the money that's already IN there." because the neocons don't want testing to go away and the liberals don't DARE.

I think you're seriously underestimating the level of evil involved here.

Yep.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I wonder when he's going to get up the balls  to reply again instead of obsessively reading the thread.

I think he's getting a recharge of "EVIL LIBERAL JOOOZ" at the other sites he mentioned.

Even Popeye needed spinach every once in a while.

[Junkenstein]

"When yer butt just cant stop hurtin,

Blame Joos, koons and wermen,

VZ the entitled "Man""

[Pergamos]

I've argued the drug testing thing with a few people who are in favor of it so far and although it probably actually WILL lead to people's benefits being reduced the fact that it CAN lead to more taxes is an important part of the conversation.  If you can get the person who doesn't want to help poor people buy drugs to realize that there is a definite possibility he's going to be paying more taxes to make sure that no welfare  money goes to drugs then he's less likely to push the position as aggressively.  It also means that he has to actually embrace the "take grandma's grocery money to pay to drug test" position which is morally difficult for most people.  Of course most cling to "it'll save us money" and screech.

[navkat]

I do have that tendency.

[navkat]

And I think one hand lathers the other. Once we're all lubed up and accept drug testing as the norm, the less there is to go 'round of the assistance money because it's going to pay the labs, the easier it is to rile up the opposition to collect MORE taxes to pump up the assistance programs because the portion the needy actually see is inadequate. Nobody goes back and says "Wait a minute now, let's audit the money that's already IN there." because the neocons don't want testing to go away and the liberals don't DARE.

I think you're seriously underestimating the level of evil involved here.

Yep.

Youuu Tooo, huh?

[The Johnny]

A note on taxes as "the great equalizer":

In society, there is people with all types of privilege that has been accumulated thru the generations, be it through hard work, being predatory upon others, or pure blind luck (take a guess at which ones are more prevalent, a little bit of history can make this clearer).

We all use highways, healthcare, and all types of infrastructure (electricity, water, gas, judicial system, etc)... even if not right now at some point in our lives we WILL, thus, we all have to chip into the costs of it. Shared use = shared cost.

"But i make so much more money than the average peon and i would rather pay for this things privately! I dont want no leeches on me!"... No, you will never make enough money to pay for your own roads to every single place you decide to go...

There is also the matter of human dignity... people should not have to die in the streets from hunger, or from an illness they couldnt pay for, everyone should have the right for a decent education.

There are far too many people that work harder than you and me that struggle to bring bread to the table... we might provide a specialized skill that is valued more, but that only came from years of experience, or merely because of the privilege of education... there is also trust-fund babies that havent lifted a single finger in their lives to do anything productive.

Inequality, privilege, taxes and basic human decency are intrinsically inmeshed.

And no, privatization is not the answer, that is simply a way to overcharge for services so that a huge part of the population is excluded from them, for things that should be accesible for everyone and paid for collectively.

P.S. Didnt know if to post it here, on Entitlement thread or made a new thread, but whatever.

[Junkenstein]

I've argued the drug testing thing with a few people who are in favor of it so far and although it probably actually WILL lead to people's benefits being reduced the fact that it CAN lead to more taxes is an important part of the conversation.  If you can get the person who doesn't want to help poor people buy drugs to realize that there is a definite possibility he's going to be paying more taxes to make sure that no welfare  money goes to drugs then he's less likely to push the position as aggressively.  It also means that he has to actually embrace the "take grandma's grocery money to pay to drug test" position which is morally difficult for most people.  Of course most cling to "it'll save us money" and screech.

This baffles me. It's been shown to always cost more, fuck people over and help no one. Especially the sectors it is actually trying to help. Is it a perception thing? Like it should save money and help filthy addicts?

[Pergamos]

I've argued the drug testing thing with a few people who are in favor of it so far and although it probably actually WILL lead to people's benefits being reduced the fact that it CAN lead to more taxes is an important part of the conversation.  If you can get the person who doesn't want to help poor people buy drugs to realize that there is a definite possibility he's going to be paying more taxes to make sure that no welfare  money goes to drugs then he's less likely to push the position as aggressively.  It also means that he has to actually embrace the "take grandma's grocery money to pay to drug test" position which is morally difficult for most people.  Of course most cling to "it'll save us money" and screech.

This baffles me. It's been shown to always cost more, fuck people over and help no one. Especially the sectors it is actually trying to help. Is it a perception thing? Like it should save money and help filthy addicts?

I believe that is exactly what it is.  No mater how many times you post the published data showing the opposite people cling to the idea that it will save money.  They don't want it to help filthy addicts though, those people need to be punished.

[Juana]

I think it's mostly a I-hate-the-dirty-poor thing. America doesn't treat her poor very well. We've got a very Protestant notion that if you're poor, it's your own fault and god hates you. And so we don't really think about them as real people.

[navkat]

The guys in charge know this.

Look: we live in two different worlds: Those on the bottom cling to morality and ideals because they're important and sometimes, they're all ya got.

The top-feeders aren't even oriented that way. This is about "What can we get and how can we get the most?"

[Pergamos]

I think it's mostly a I-hate-the-dirty-poor thing. America doesn't treat her poor very well. We've got a very Protestant notion that if you're poor, it's your own fault and god hates you. And so we don't really think about them as real people.

Everyone that I have heard taking this position is poor.  Some of them are even currently on benefits. 

[Juana]

I think it's mostly a I-hate-the-dirty-poor thing. America doesn't treat her poor very well. We've got a very Protestant notion that if you're poor, it's your own fault and god hates you. And so we don't really think about them as real people.

Everyone that I have heard taking this position is poor.  Some of them are even currently on benefits. 

Do you think they're immune to absorbing classism? And how many of them are white? (most people on welfare are white, so I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say most) Remember what I said about racism and classism being linked?

[navkat]

I think it's mostly a I-hate-the-dirty-poor thing. America doesn't treat her poor very well. We've got a very Protestant notion that if you're poor, it's your own fault and god hates you. And so we don't really think about them as real people.

Some of it's that and some of it is that there are people who are genuinely well-meaning but misled. And then, there are some that look at their ever-shrinking pile and instead of fighting the Colossus with all the purse-strings, they snarl at the hungry critters at the edges and guard the bowl.

[Junkenstein]

I think it's mostly a I-hate-the-dirty-poor thing. America doesn't treat her poor very well. We've got a very Protestant notion that if you're poor, it's your own fault and god hates you. And so we don't really think about them as real people.

Everyone that I have heard taking this position is poor.  Some of them are even currently on benefits.

Wow. "Hate thy neighbour" I guess. He's a filthy addict bastard. Best cut off my nose to spite his spoon.