Author Topic: I R STOOPID  (Read 19708 times)

The Johnny

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 10:25:09 am »
According to the Fish head documentary I linked to elsewhere, people with psychopathic tendencies tend to rise to positions of leadership and then make decisions without the ability to have empathy for those that their decision affects adversely. They point to examples in both business and politics... they also draw some interesting conclusions about the effects of SSRI's and how they create symptoms that are similar to psychopathy, then parallels between the increased use of SSRI's among leaders and the increase in bad/poor/self-interested decisions due to the fact that their emotions are muted by the drugs.

Interesting stuff, though of course, its all theory/supposition/belief/agenda etc.

Sounds similar, but not quite the same, im pretty sure it was on the Less Wrong Wiki.

Yeah, I've read a couple different articles about leadership becoming detached and underlings being in fear of contradicting the leader ("communication occurs only between equals". - RAW)  The "I am Fishead" movie takes the same concept to the next level... that is not only do some leaders become detached, but some leaders become leaders because they are already completely detached emotionally and without conscience (i.e. psychopathic at some level, or too whacked on SSRI's to feel the emotional impact of their decisions and the risks they choose).

I would imagine that there's probably truth in both of those ideas and taken together it results in the madness we see in leadership. Some leaders become detached, some leaders start out detached (which makes it easier for them to rise to the position of leader).

Either way, they end up lacking the ability to realize that they're Cosmic Schmucks ;-)

Yeah, they think that just by being a social climber makes them more adept at completing tasks, while in reality their only ability is, well, being a social climber.
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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 11:50:47 am »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads.

Well, now that you speak of leadership, there was this article on the Less Wrong Wiki about how "leaders" or people in positions of power get so detached from reality and their own power makes underlings fear to make any criticism... The point i think im trying to make is that people that believe they are smart, usually focus on it a little bit too much "I'm so smart that i can improvise a solution to this problem with little effort and very close to the deadline with an undecent number of risks, why? because im smart and my nebulous calculations and intuition will most probably get me thru it."


But it can also be true, especially with a good leader, that while they observe and acknowledge their intelligence and influence, that precisely because if that influence, they factor into their intelligence the benefit of continuing to learn and adjust to mistakes, which they most certainly are still capable of making.  The difference is a good leader, and one with the smarts and intelligence, can rapidly adjust to changing conditions and outcomes on the fly.  Which tends to be one of the reasons others look up to and rely upon the leader.  They don't let shit ruffle them or blow them off course.  They find a way to get it done until it is done.
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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 11:52:29 am »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:


I don't suffer at all.  I'm having the time of my life. 
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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 12:54:41 pm »
I'm wicked smart AND dumb as a bag of spanners

I find I can only effectively capitalise on the former when I'm fully aware of the latter
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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2013, 04:52:07 pm »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:

In my experience, if the people you are leading are directionless and fearful, you're doing a piss-poor job of leadership. An effective leader empowers people to take control. A really effective leader can walk into a situation where a shitty "leader" has left people feeling directionless and fearful, can empower them, and create a situation where they can just walk away and everything will be fine.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2013, 05:09:40 pm »
According to the Fish head documentary I linked to elsewhere, people with psychopathic tendencies tend to rise to positions of leadership and then make decisions without the ability to have empathy for those that their decision affects adversely. They point to examples in both business and politics... they also draw some interesting conclusions about the effects of SSRI's and how they create symptoms that are similar to psychopathy, then parallels between the increased use of SSRI's among leaders and the increase in bad/poor/self-interested decisions due to the fact that their emotions are muted by the drugs.

Interesting stuff, though of course, its all theory/supposition/belief/agenda etc.

Sounds similar, but not quite the same, im pretty sure it was on the Less Wrong Wiki.

Yeah, I've read a couple different articles about leadership becoming detached and underlings being in fear of contradicting the leader ("communication occurs only between equals". - RAW)  The "I am Fishead" movie takes the same concept to the next level... that is not only do some leaders become detached, but some leaders become leaders because they are already completely detached emotionally and without conscience (i.e. psychopathic at some level, or too whacked on SSRI's to feel the emotional impact of their decisions and the risks they choose).

I would imagine that there's probably truth in both of those ideas and taken together it results in the madness we see in leadership. Some leaders become detached, some leaders start out detached (which makes it easier for them to rise to the position of leader).

Either way, they end up lacking the ability to realize that they're Cosmic Schmucks ;-)

http://www.forbes.com/2010/11/19/sociopath-boss-work-forbes-woman-leadership-office-evil.html

John Clarke's "Working With Monsters" is supposed to be a good insight into psychopaths in business, as is Babiak & Hare's "Snakes in Suits" and of course Hare's "The Psychopaths Among Us".

Here are a few articles that look interesting:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-010-0689-5#page-1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=J-qzP_k__2gC&oi=fnd&pg=PA125&dq=psychopath+workplace&ots=RbtMCv1MH4&sig=MEHncCiqphBAwKworNMY9nwkzbw#v=onepage&q=psychopath%20workplace&f=false
http://eprints.worc.ac.uk/653/

This abstract is interesting: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-010-0689-5

Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2013, 05:18:25 pm »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:

In my experience, if the people you are leading are directionless and fearful, you're doing a piss-poor job of leadership. An effective leader empowers people to take control. A really effective leader can walk into a situation where a shitty "leader" has left people feeling directionless and fearful, can empower them, and create a situation where they can just walk away and everything will be fine.

DING DING DING.

Roger:  "Ed, I need you to figure out X and Y."

Ed:  "I'm not an engineer."

Roger:  "That's why I'm coming to you.  I need this to work."

Ed:  "Okay.  Then it doesn't work, and what do you say in the meeting?"

Roger:  "'WE fucked up'.  If it does work, then 'Ed made this happen'".

Ed can shelter in the group if things go wrong, and he gets the glory if things go right.  Ed is not fearful, and therefore will most likely succeed.
 

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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2013, 05:19:44 pm »
("communication occurs only between equals". - RAW) 

This is incorrect.  Communication only occurs in non-punishing situations.  Not the same thing.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2013, 05:32:15 pm »
("communication occurs only between equals". - RAW) 

This is incorrect.  Communication only occurs in non-punishing situations.  Not the same thing.

Yeah, I agree with Roger on this one. You can have lots of communication between non-equals, but only if the subordinate feels safe and respected and the superior doesn't feel threatened.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2013, 06:26:04 pm »
If you can't take a 3 week vacation without your department falling apart, you're not even a leader at all, you're a dispatcher.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2013, 06:36:19 pm »
If you can't take a 3 week vacation without your department falling apart, you're not even a leader at all, you're a dispatcher.

And there's something deeply dysfunctional about your organization, starting with it's leadership.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 07:03:20 pm »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:

In my experience, if the people you are leading are directionless and fearful, you're doing a piss-poor job of leadership. An effective leader empowers people to take control. A really effective leader can walk into a situation where a shitty "leader" has left people feeling directionless and fearful, can empower them, and create a situation where they can just walk away and everything will be fine.


Sure, in a situation where a leader has a direct supervisory role over the people asking to be lead.  I'm in a situation where I have that role PLUS a role of being a leader for other, similar organizations in my state, because it is a situation where there is no direct leadership.  There is no one telling our organizations what to do, yet, we do tend to band together and work together.  And so naturally everyone will look for a torchbearer, and they WILL pick one, they will naturally look to one or two key people who are seen as intelligent, smart, and able to get shit done.  I am in that position here in Maine in my line of work, so sure I am a fairly humble chap, but I also have to  own and embrace my skills, because it is because of those skills I was identified as a leader.  That's why I say if you don't take that up, people get fearful and aren't sure how to act.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2013, 07:06:10 pm »
so sure I am a fairly humble chap,

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

I don't think I've ever actually met someone as full of him/her self as you are.

Not once in my 44 years on the planet.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2013, 07:07:18 pm »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:

In my experience, if the people you are leading are directionless and fearful, you're doing a piss-poor job of leadership. An effective leader empowers people to take control. A really effective leader can walk into a situation where a shitty "leader" has left people feeling directionless and fearful, can empower them, and create a situation where they can just walk away and everything will be fine.


Sure, in a situation where a leader has a direct supervisory role over the people asking to be lead.  I'm in a situation where I have that role PLUS a role of being a leader for other, similar organizations in my state, because it is a situation where there is no direct leadership.  There is no one telling our organizations what to do, yet, we do tend to band together and work together.  And so naturally everyone will look for a torchbearer, and they WILL pick one, they will naturally look to one or two key people who are seen as intelligent, smart, and able to get shit done.  I am in that position here in Maine in my line of work, so sure I am a fairly humble chap, but I also have to  own and embrace my skills, because it is because of those skills I was identified as a leader.  That's why I say if you don't take that up, people get fearful and aren't sure how to act.

Ohhhh my god.  :horrormirth:
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: I R STOOPID
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2013, 07:08:27 pm »
But then there is the conundrum where everyone is telling you that you are really smart, intelligent, etc., AND they are expecting you to fix shit and get shit done.  You certainly can have humility and acknowledge that you have limits and are of course fallible.  But when you have people depending on you, at some level you do have to take the mantle and run with it, that's just leadership.  If you don't, then you have a bunch of directionless, fearful people on your hands with sads. 

Oh, how noble it is of you to suffer for the little people. :lulz:

In my experience, if the people you are leading are directionless and fearful, you're doing a piss-poor job of leadership. An effective leader empowers people to take control. A really effective leader can walk into a situation where a shitty "leader" has left people feeling directionless and fearful, can empower them, and create a situation where they can just walk away and everything will be fine.


Sure, in a situation where a leader has a direct supervisory role over the people asking to be lead.  I'm in a situation where I have that role PLUS a role of being a leader for other, similar organizations in my state, because it is a situation where there is no direct leadership.  There is no one telling our organizations what to do, yet, we do tend to band together and work together.  And so naturally everyone will look for a torchbearer, and they WILL pick one, they will naturally look to one or two key people who are seen as intelligent, smart, and able to get shit done.  I am in that position here in Maine in my line of work, so sure I am a fairly humble chap, but I also have to  own and embrace my skills, because it is because of those skills I was identified as a leader.  That's why I say if you don't take that up, people get fearful and aren't sure how to act.

Ohhhh my god.  :horrormirth:

All my skin peeled off my face.  I am sitting in my chair, bellowing laughter out of my bare skull.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.