Prism and Verizon surveillance discussion thread

[Doktor Howl]

If Germany do that, all kinds of shit is going to end in tears, fast.

That said, it sounds more like flexing than an actual statement of intent. More Germany reminding the US that as far as it should be concerned the EU=Germany.

Actually, to me it sounded like "stop listening in on us."

But I'm not in Europe, so I don't have a clear enough picture to grasp the subtleties.

[Cain]

The Greens in Germany have always been outspoken opponents of the nastier side of US foreign policy.

The Greens are polling currently between 13-15%.  Usually, the Greens form a coalition with the larger, and somewhat US friendlier, SPD.  But even combined, their support is 3 points lower than Angela Merkel's CDU and the CSU in Bavaria.  The CDU are very much in favour of the alliance with the US, and will put up with almost any amount of shit to maintain it.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Am I being overly cynical when I assume strongly-worded statements from EU countries regarding PRISM are really just domestic PR so those leaders can look to their own constituents like they're standing up to the US? I mean, Kerry isn't wrong when he says allies bugging each other is a fairly common practice, and I can't fathom that France and Germany were legitimately surprised by the spying program. I'm just some schmuck who wears a tinfoil hat to bed, and I already assumed this stuff was going on, domestically and internationally. So I don't understand how high-ranking officials in foreign governments wouldn't already be aware of it.

[Junkenstein]

If Germany do that, all kinds of shit is going to end in tears, fast.

That said, it sounds more like flexing than an actual statement of intent. More Germany reminding the US that as far as it should be concerned the EU=Germany.

Actually, to me it sounded like "stop listening in on us."

But I'm not in Europe, so I don't have a clear enough picture to grasp the subtleties.

Probably reading more into than I should. I tend to think that shit has more complexity than may actually be there. Realistically, I think they're banging the drum while they've got the opportunity. Points scoring on a national level. Actually helping Snowden though must be off the table. Unless that help is arranging for him to be in a particular place at a certain time, which I can't rule out. "He was on his way here.... must have got lost.....No, the CCTV system's being reset today"

Germany isn't too fond of the surveillance state, so it's an easy vote winner on the way to elections too.

[Cain]

Am I being overly cynical when I assume strongly-worded statements from EU countries regarding PRISM are really just domestic PR so those leaders can look to their own constituents like they're standing up to the US? I mean, Kerry isn't wrong when he says allies bugging each other is a fairly common practice, and I can't fathom that France and Germany were legitimately surprised by the spying program. I'm just some schmuck who wears a tinfoil hat to bed, and I already assumed this stuff was going on, domestically and internationally. So I don't understand how high-ranking officials in foreign governments wouldn't already be aware of it.

To be brief, no.

Some particular parties in particular countries (like the Greens) I do tend to believe, given their history.  But most of them are wildly jumping from "we are of course concerned about these programs" to "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" and back with impressive speed.

[Junkenstein]

Am I being overly cynical when I assume strongly-worded statements from EU countries regarding PRISM are really just domestic PR so those leaders can look to their own constituents like they're standing up to the US? I mean, Kerry isn't wrong when he says allies bugging each other is a fairly common practice, and I can't fathom that France and Germany were legitimately surprised by the spying program. I'm just some schmuck who wears a tinfoil hat to bed, and I already assumed this stuff was going on, domestically and internationally. So I don't understand how high-ranking officials in foreign governments wouldn't already be aware of it.

I'd struggle to disagree. The question is what was already known, to whom and how complicit are they in it?

There's a lot of governments that are a bit shaky these days. Who's to say what would happen if you got a leak exposing the current government as a willing partner in US espionage?

[Cain]

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/edward-snowden-nsa-leak-george-w-bush-comments-93604.html

Bush is defending Obama.

[Don Coyote]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19177709-army-reportedly-blocking-military-access-to-guardian-coverage-of-nsa-leaks

ALL THE HORSES ARE OUT!  LOCK UP THE BARN!
\

It would be HORRIBLY HILLARIOUS if someone were to accidently unblock all of the guardian so that all of those NIPR boxes accidentally got classified materials on them and then could no longer be used on the NIPRnet.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, we're no longer rich, our millitary is stuck in a desert which has eaten much of our hardware and soliders, our 'moral' position on human rights has been shot into a muddy killing field by a drone, or indefinitely detained...

So who's afraid of the big bad wolf after he got emphysema and dentures? 

[Doktor Howl]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19264421-snowden-hunt-bolivia-complains-to-un-over-abduction-of-its-president

No unauthorized people were found on board.

No unauthorized people

unauthorized people

[LMNO]

WE BE AUTHORIZED!
                     \

[Doktor Howl]

WE BE AUTHORIZED!
                     \

I still say that little girl in the lower right hand corner is going to eat all of those bastards, one fine day.

[LMNO]

Sure, when the lights go out and the food supply runs out.

[Doktor Howl]

Sure, when the lights go out and the food supply runs out.

No, look at that face.  It will be soon.  Fear will stalk their town, and the police will be helpless, because who's going to be looking for a little girl?

[LMNO]

It's the Curse of Millhaven*, all over again!




*A song by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds. I would post the YouTube link, but... YouTube link.