Twid's spiritual exploration thingie.

[Salty]

Right before I started posting here I got into Kabbalah. Or, dabbled in Kabbalah.

I found this weird website on it written by this lone due who never capitalized anything. Anyhow, he said that to start, you start at the bottom. Malkuth. It is concerned primarily with the material. To study it you embrace it, focus only on the real, actual, meaty universe in front of you. Like a barstool used to clean your mystical palate.

It really did the trick for me. I got my shit together, mostly, and stopped looking for things that weren't there. This guy said you could easily spend 3 years on malkuth. It takes time to build a foundation. And when you're trying to access mystical or spiritual experienced it pays to make sure you have a cozy place set up to fall back down on.

Sorry to interrupt the flow, but I thought this relevant to the OP.

[Salty]

Also, I highly recommend yoga as a spiritual persuit.

James Hewitt writes a great yoga book. Its nice because you can certainly feel that small, still voice/breach into the abyss that connects your every cell to everything else....but it doesn't get carried away too easily either.

And once you're set up with a program it is only a matter of practicing every day.

[Left]

@ alty:
Grounding in Malkuth concept...is damn interesting.
I think I can use that a lot, though I think it'd just be something I ought to do daily, grounding.
I ought to add it in to the breath-counting.

...And doing yoga benefits both physically and spiritually.
I have to do it because of a degenerative spine thingy anyway, but it really does work to quiet and center things.

[The Johnny]

[Ben Shapiro]

Yeah, I don't really get the idea that religions can't/shouldn't change.

They do change, but they also -- at every stage of their evolution -- like to pretend that they don't. The Bible says DON'T EVER ADD ANYTHING TO SCRIPTURE, because scripture has always been "complete," even before it was finished. Every successive generation practicing a religion convinces themselves and teaches dogmatically that the way they practice is the One True Way to practice, that anyone who did it differently before them was doing it wrong, and anyone who comes after them who changes anything is doing it wrong. Of course religions change -- but they don't admit to changing, they don't encourage change, and religious people willfully ignore the natural evolution of their religion to the point of outright ignorance of their own traditions and history. I know Baptists who actually believe that the Rapture was taught by the original Apostles, for example. They write whole books about this kind of thing despite it being demonstrably false. It all just adds to my overall impression of religion being a social tool specifically designed to confound people and confuse reality with arbitrary myth.

Religion is a human behavior.  Humans are not constant.

And if you expect purity of intent and logic in ANY human endeavor, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

So you're telling me I can't have fun telling teabagger children there is no santa clause?

[Cain]

Right before I started posting here I got into Kabbalah. Or, dabbled in Kabbalah.

I found this weird website on it written by this lone due who never capitalized anything. Anyhow, he said that to start, you start at the bottom. Malkuth. It is concerned primarily with the material. To study it you embrace it, focus only on the real, actual, meaty universe in front of you. Like a barstool used to clean your mystical palate.

It really did the trick for me. I got my shit together, mostly, and stopped looking for things that weren't there. This guy said you could easily spend 3 years on malkuth. It takes time to build a foundation. And when you're trying to access mystical or spiritual experienced it pays to make sure you have a cozy place set up to fall back down on.

Sorry to interrupt the flow, but I thought this relevant to the OP.

Israel Regardie said the same.  Well, not exactly the same, but he suggested anyone seeking to get involved in ceremonial occult practices first of all undergo extensive psychiatric analysis, for very similar reasons.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Yeah, I don't really get the idea that religions can't/shouldn't change.

They do change, but they also -- at every stage of their evolution -- like to pretend that they don't. The Bible says DON'T EVER ADD ANYTHING TO SCRIPTURE, because scripture has always been "complete," even before it was finished. Every successive generation practicing a religion convinces themselves and teaches dogmatically that the way they practice is the One True Way to practice, that anyone who did it differently before them was doing it wrong, and anyone who comes after them who changes anything is doing it wrong. Of course religions change -- but they don't admit to changing, they don't encourage change, and religious people willfully ignore the natural evolution of their religion to the point of outright ignorance of their own traditions and history. I know Baptists who actually believe that the Rapture was taught by the original Apostles, for example. They write whole books about this kind of thing despite it being demonstrably false. It all just adds to my overall impression of religion being a social tool specifically designed to confound people and confuse reality with arbitrary myth.

Religion is a human behavior.  Humans are not constant.

And if you expect purity of intent and logic in ANY human endeavor, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, I'm not contradicting that here. I don't expect humans to be constant or even consistent. I expect even less from religion, considering it is entirely a human contrivance, invented, modified, transmitted, propagated, and enforced entirely by a collective of mostly blank human minds. Obviously it is going to change along with the humans who are solely responsible for its entire existence.

What I'm saying is that people who believe a religion, believe that it is more than that. That it is divinely inspired or revealed. Handed down from a transcendental source of some kind, which itself is above petty things like changing human culture. They believe that their religion is timeless and unwavering, no matter how old, new, or adapted to culture it may be. And as I wonder how one can truly understand a religion until one truly believes it, the fact is I can't ignore the disparity between what religion claims to be (timeless and transcendant) and what it actually is (the sum total of five billion or so aggressive apes trying to assemble a circus tent from five billion or so different sets of instructions, then getting into a fight trying to raise it, and beating each other to death with the poles.)

So, in relation to the OP (sorry for the hijack, by the way) -- how can one "tour" religions? Is this strictly about the drudgery of rituals and diets and commandments, or are you trying to gain an insight into their entire belief structures, from the vantage point of an average adherant? Because if that's what you're after I'm incredibly interested and I'd like to know how you get past the superficial regard for your target religion as "another bunch of monkeys trying to discover fire and smashing anyone who rubs two sticks together" and experience it as authentic?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that a lot of people explore different religions on the basis that they feel that there is a god or gods or some such divinity, and they are seeking a community and structure in which to worship, so they try different communities and structures until they find one they would be comfortable with.

This is not really unlike people shopping for different operating systems, and you can see this manifested in the fact that many people, once they settle on one, vociferously insist that it is the best one for everyone and everything, and that all others are inferior. However, should they become disillusioned in it for some reason, they will despise it and turn their back on it and insist that they will have no more to do with it, ever, and that all the others who still find it valid and useful are mindless sheep.

[Left]

I think that a lot of people explore different religions on the basis that they feel that there is a god or gods or some such divinity, and they are seeking a community and structure in which to worship, so they try different communities and structures until they find one they would be comfortable with.

This is not really unlike people shopping for different operating systems, and you can see this manifested in the fact that many people, once they settle on one, vociferously insist that it is the best one for everyone and everything, and that all others are inferior. However, should they become disillusioned in it for some reason, they will despise it and turn their back on it and insist that they will have no more to do with it, ever, and that all the others who still find it valid and useful are mindless sheep.

They don't look at them as OS's.  They ought to, it's a lot more rational way of dealing with irrationality.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Yeah, I don't really get the idea that religions can't/shouldn't change.

They do change, but they also -- at every stage of their evolution -- like to pretend that they don't. The Bible says DON'T EVER ADD ANYTHING TO SCRIPTURE, because scripture has always been "complete," even before it was finished. Every successive generation practicing a religion convinces themselves and teaches dogmatically that the way they practice is the One True Way to practice, that anyone who did it differently before them was doing it wrong, and anyone who comes after them who changes anything is doing it wrong. Of course religions change -- but they don't admit to changing, they don't encourage change, and religious people willfully ignore the natural evolution of their religion to the point of outright ignorance of their own traditions and history. I know Baptists who actually believe that the Rapture was taught by the original Apostles, for example. They write whole books about this kind of thing despite it being demonstrably false. It all just adds to my overall impression of religion being a social tool specifically designed to confound people and confuse reality with arbitrary myth.

Religion is a human behavior.  Humans are not constant.

And if you expect purity of intent and logic in ANY human endeavor, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

Yeah, I'm not contradicting that here. I don't expect humans to be constant or even consistent. I expect even less from religion, considering it is entirely a human contrivance, invented, modified, transmitted, propagated, and enforced entirely by a collective of mostly blank human minds. Obviously it is going to change along with the humans who are solely responsible for its entire existence.

What I'm saying is that people who believe a religion, believe that it is more than that. That it is divinely inspired or revealed. Handed down from a transcendental source of some kind, which itself is above petty things like changing human culture. They believe that their religion is timeless and unwavering, no matter how old, new, or adapted to culture it may be. And as I wonder how one can truly understand a religion until one truly believes it, the fact is I can't ignore the disparity between what religion claims to be (timeless and transcendant) and what it actually is (the sum total of five billion or so aggressive apes trying to assemble a circus tent from five billion or so different sets of instructions, then getting into a fight trying to raise it, and beating each other to death with the poles.)

So, in relation to the OP (sorry for the hijack, by the way) -- how can one "tour" religions? Is this strictly about the drudgery of rituals and diets and commandments, or are you trying to gain an insight into their entire belief structures, from the vantage point of an average adherant? Because if that's what you're after I'm incredibly interested and I'd like to know how you get past the superficial regard for your target religion as "another bunch of monkeys trying to discover fire and smashing anyone who rubs two sticks together" and experience it as authentic?

It's partially to understand them from an inside perspective, partially to appreciate them, and partially to find which bits work for me.

I will say I'm not exactly sure I understand the meaning for your metaphor. I'm a little unclear on what fire is supposed to represent.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I think that a lot of people explore different religions on the basis that they feel that there is a god or gods or some such divinity, and they are seeking a community and structure in which to worship, so they try different communities and structures until they find one they would be comfortable with.

This is not really unlike people shopping for different operating systems, and you can see this manifested in the fact that many people, once they settle on one, vociferously insist that it is the best one for everyone and everything, and that all others are inferior. However, should they become disillusioned in it for some reason, they will despise it and turn their back on it and insist that they will have no more to do with it, ever, and that all the others who still find it valid and useful are mindless sheep.

Okay, thanks... I think I'm starting to get it. Searching for a community you can be comfortable in, and seeking to add your voice to the chorus that defines your community, is probably one of the defining characteristics of the crop of humans that are alive now -- not just online but around the world in all the protests and revolutions that have gone on recently where people have actually risen up to defy the rulers and the systems that are standing in the way of their searching. It's one of the few modern trends in human events that actually gives me a good feeling about the overall state of our evolution.

But does exploring religions ever produce a true religious experience? Wouldn't that mean feeling like your religious exploration has stumbled upon the Actual Truth, and becoming an honest convert? Otherwise, you haven't really experienced the religion you're exploring, because religion (The Big 3, anyway) are about full, unwavering, unquestioning, unshakable faith. The kind of faith you don't just walk away from. The kind that will make you drink the Kool-Aid. If it's always in your mind that "this religion is just another stop on my tour," then you're really not able to say you know what it's like to believe.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think that a lot of people explore different religions on the basis that they feel that there is a god or gods or some such divinity, and they are seeking a community and structure in which to worship, so they try different communities and structures until they find one they would be comfortable with.

This is not really unlike people shopping for different operating systems, and you can see this manifested in the fact that many people, once they settle on one, vociferously insist that it is the best one for everyone and everything, and that all others are inferior. However, should they become disillusioned in it for some reason, they will despise it and turn their back on it and insist that they will have no more to do with it, ever, and that all the others who still find it valid and useful are mindless sheep.

Okay, thanks... I think I'm starting to get it. Searching for a community you can be comfortable in, and seeking to add your voice to the chorus that defines your community, is probably one of the defining characteristics of the crop of humans that are alive now -- not just online but around the world in all the protests and revolutions that have gone on recently where people have actually risen up to defy the rulers and the systems that are standing in the way of their searching. It's one of the few modern trends in human events that actually gives me a good feeling about the overall state of our evolution.

But does exploring religions ever produce a true religious experience? Wouldn't that mean feeling like your religious exploration has stumbled upon the Actual Truth, and becoming an honest convert? Otherwise, you haven't really experienced the religion you're exploring, because religion (The Big 3, anyway) are about full, unwavering, unquestioning, unshakable faith. The kind of faith you don't just walk away from. The kind that will make you drink the Kool-Aid. If it's always in your mind that "this religion is just another stop on my tour," then you're really not able to say you know what it's like to believe.

You've never changed your mind about something? It's basically the same thing, except it's a conscious decision. If I experience a conversion experience with one particular religion, then that becomes something interesting that requires further exploration. I would at that point try and see what sparked it with in that one particular religion by repeating it in others.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I also think you're underestimating the amount of doubt and agnosticism that believers have. The ones who are absolutely certain are a fairly  rare type, at least up here in New England.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

It's partially to understand them from an inside perspective, partially to appreciate them, and partially to find which bits work for me.

I will say I'm not exactly sure I understand the meaning for your metaphor. I'm a little unclear on what fire is supposed to represent.

Fire is progress. Not just technological progress, but intellectual and spiritual progress. Ever since my initial religious disillusionment I can't consider any religious tradition or teaching all that likely to inspire progress. On the contrary, they seem consciously designed to prevent progress.

It isn't just scientific progress, though that's the easiest for us to see now because that's the fastest-progressing area of development we have right now. But religion expressly forbids all kinds of progress. Social progress, political progress, medical progress, sexual progress. You're forbidden from doing or often even saying or thinking anything that has been declared "unclean" to you, by the ultimate in untouchable authority figures.

So there are the monkeys, stumbling about blindly trying to figure out some stuff about living, and as soon as they think they have something figured out, they team up and beat anybody who asks if maybe there's another way to look at things. Because religion is power and control, and they each seem to be fundamentally incompatible with the concept of finding your own way. The entire point of the religions I'm aware of is that you don't and can't figure it out on your own no matter what you do, so just quit trying and let THEM tell you how it is. Or else.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't think it's that black and white for most people. I can honestly say that I've had transcendent experiences in a number of different religious settings. Of course, I also am keenly aware of the biological processes behind those experiences, but I don't think they are any less enlightening for that.