Wish Fulfillment Disorders

[Junkenstein]

you make a strong case, Rat. Maybe I'm wrong. My gut tells me that when god is making that much cash, it's not usually god that's pocketing it but I'd love to think that it really is just viral insanity, since that strike me a a much funnier scenario. Here's hoping it really is an imaginary being who's sitting on that vast mountain of wealth and power 

Well, keep in mind that the money fuels a huge publishing company, which produces loads of magazines, books and bibles in dozens of languages for "donation" prices... all of it is given away and if people want to donate they can, if not no one cares. They pay for new Kingdom Halls (the JW churches) all over the world. In countries where the people are poor, they aren't even asked for donations. On top of all of that, it also pays for thousands of employees of the Watchtower society (room, board, food, $90 stipend etc), hundreds of branches in different countries and thousands of missionaries... plus hundreds of regional overseers that travel from congregation to congregation making sure that elders aren't being fuckups or that there isn't some problem with the group.

If the guys at the top have any of the money, they're hiding it pretty well and not doing shit with it

I mean, I'd almost argue that True Believers can be far more successful at conversion rates than paid schemers... but I just don't know.

I would suggest looking at any associated accountants and lawyers very closely. If there's no-one skimming directly, someone clever will be from slightly outside.

If they're not actively seeking donations, there's little concern here though really. Easier and bigger targets.

Dok,

Here's the deal.  People who believe in things like "magick" have basically said "I give up trying to control my environment", and they're looking for some "entity" that will control it for them.

Been having another catch-up on scientologists. Spot on really. Just replace the rituals and the related woo and it covers pretty much everything.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

you make a strong case, Rat. Maybe I'm wrong. My gut tells me that when god is making that much cash, it's not usually god that's pocketing it but I'd love to think that it really is just viral insanity, since that strike me a a much funnier scenario. Here's hoping it really is an imaginary being who's sitting on that vast mountain of wealth and power 

Well, keep in mind that the money fuels a huge publishing company, which produces loads of magazines, books and bibles in dozens of languages for "donation" prices... all of it is given away and if people want to donate they can, if not no one cares. They pay for new Kingdom Halls (the JW churches) all over the world. In countries where the people are poor, they aren't even asked for donations. On top of all of that, it also pays for thousands of employees of the Watchtower society (room, board, food, $90 stipend etc), hundreds of branches in different countries and thousands of missionaries... plus hundreds of regional overseers that travel from congregation to congregation making sure that elders aren't being fuckups or that there isn't some problem with the group.

If the guys at the top have any of the money, they're hiding it pretty well and not doing shit with it

I mean, I'd almost argue that True Believers can be far more successful at conversion rates than paid schemers... but I just don't know.

I would suggest looking at any associated accountants and lawyers very closely. If there's no-one skimming directly, someone clever will be from slightly outside.

If they're not actively seeking donations, there's little concern here though really. Easier and bigger targets.

Dok,

Here's the deal.  People who believe in things like "magick" have basically said "I give up trying to control my environment", and they're looking for some "entity" that will control it for them.

Been having another catch-up on scientologists. Spot on really. Just replace the rituals and the related woo and it covers pretty much everything.

Yeah, my concern with them isn't where the money goes, its the very scary fact that lots of people die because of what they believe. I still can't get over: "Ooops, we were wrong about the end of the world, but we're sure that we're right when we say God wants you to die rather than taking a blood transfusion!" 

True story, I was 6 years old and in the hospital recovering from kidney surgery. The doctor told my parents I may die without blood and they said "If he dies, we will see him in the Resurrection."

I was awake in the hospital bed, listening... and I remember crying and begging them not to let the Doctors give me blood...

[Junkenstein]

The blood transfusion thing, I just don't get. The ability to get into a mindset where ignoring medical science with the possible/probable outcome of death at least borders on child cruelty to me.

I was awake in the hospital bed, listening... and I remember crying and begging them not to let the Doctors give me blood...

Doctors must be driven insane with this shit. Simple solution to ensure a better outcome rejected out of hand for terrible reasoning.

[P3nT4gR4m]

It's a perfect illustration of the core of religious faith - clinging to an unfounded (often very harmful) belief, in the face of contradictory evidence and/or logic.

When the believer dies because of it, IMHO, it's a good thing. When their kids die because of it, it's a fucking shame and a bloody good argument for not allowing idiots with no sense of reality to bring up children.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It's a perfect illustration of the core of religious faith - clinging to an unfounded (often very harmful) belief, in the face of contradictory evidence and/or logic.

When the believer dies because of it, IMHO, it's a good thing. When their kids die because of it, it's a fucking shame and a bloody good argument for not allowing idiots with no sense of reality to bring up children.

Yep. After that experience, my grandparents didn't speak to my parents for a very long time... but the fellow believers lauded praise on them and me for being so strong when our faith was tested. This comes back to the OP discussion... when believers only play with themselves (LOL) they reinforce absurdity. Once non-believers start to peek in and kick at those rotten foundations, the True Believers must simply become more and more absurdly insular with a persecution complex, reinforcing their own beliefs with their fellow nut jobs and assuming that everyone else just doesn't KNOW THE TRUTH.

Though, sometimes, I think outside factors can be positive (in some sense). Over the past decade, JW's have shifted their view on blood transfusions. If the blood is broken down into platelets, white blood cells, gamma gobulin etc these individual bits as transfusions become a 'conscience matter' (ie, up to the individual). So while you still can't take whole blood... you can get it piecemeal, because apparently God put some loopholes in the system.

[P3nT4gR4m]

It's fucking appalling, really. Simple question - if, by some bizarre quirk of reality, it turned out there was an all powerful, all knowing ruler in charge of the universe, do you expect he'd be a complete fucking idiot?

If the answer is no then surely religion = over 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It's fucking appalling, really. Simple question - if, by some bizarre quirk of reality, it turned out there was an all powerful, all knowing ruler in charge of the universe, do you expect he'd be a complete fucking idiot?

If the answer is no then surely religion = over 

This was the key line of reasoning that ultimately led to me leaving. If there is a God, then either
A) He doesn't expect me to believe in him, because he's given no evidence
or
B) He expects me to believe in him while providing his religion with wrong prophecy and physical evidence that contradicts what his religion says

If its A, then I have no reason to be religious. If its B, he's a giant dick and fuck him.

[P3nT4gR4m]

My reasoning was similar

If there's a god did he invent this world so he could grow a legion of boring sycophantic pussies who are content to piss their lives away and murder or persecute anyone who isn't the exact same shade of dull grey or was he hoping for some cool kids with their own ideas who are serious about having a good time?

If it's the former then heaven sounds like a real shithole. Eternal damnation sound like the lesser of two evils.

[Left]

This was the key line of reasoning that ultimately led to me leaving. If there is a God, then either
A) He doesn't expect me to believe in him, because he's given no evidence
or
B) He expects me to believe in him while providing his religion with wrong prophecy and physical evidence that contradicts what his religion says

If its A, then I have no reason to be religious. If its B, he's a giant dick and fuck him.

I go with B.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The blood transfusion thing, I just don't get. The ability to get into a mindset where ignoring medical science with the possible/probable outcome of death at least borders on child cruelty to me.

I was awake in the hospital bed, listening... and I remember crying and begging them not to let the Doctors give me blood...

Doctors must be driven insane with this shit. Simple solution to ensure a better outcome rejected out of hand for terrible reasoning.

In Oregon, it's child abuse, legally speaking.

[Left]

True story, I was 6 years old and in the hospital recovering from kidney surgery. The doctor told my parents I may die without blood and they said "If he dies, we will see him in the Resurrection."

I was awake in the hospital bed, listening... and I remember crying and begging them not to let the Doctors give me blood...

Jeez.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We have the Followers of Christ.

I actually didn't know what they're really called until the case with the couple letting their second kid die a few years back; everyone calls them "kissers", for "kissing cousins", because they're all related. They have an INSANE child mortality rate.