What did you do with my RWHN?

[Doktor Howl]

Not sure I can agree with that.

The more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

[AFK]

I don't agree with it either.  Not every bad person is a bad person because of parents.  Most of the time it is in spite of having good parents.

[The Johnny]

That's going near-sighted. What made them "bad parents" in the first place?

[Doktor Howl]

I don't agree with it either.  Not every bad person is a bad person because of parents.  Most of the time it is in spite of having good parents.

Not only that, but if we accept the idea that people who have had an influence on a person are responsible or co-responsible - legally - for anything someone does, then expect to be thrown in jail, for shit you didn't do or were even aware of.

It also implies that people are no more than the sum of their experiences, which I reject as absurd.

[Doktor Howl]

That's going near-sighted. What made them "bad parents" in the first place?

Not sure I understand what you're getting at, here.  Can you elaborate, please?

[Doktor Howl]

Heh.  Mister "erase all my pics" is now using his pic as an avatar.   

[AFK]

I don't agree with it either.  Not every bad person is a bad person because of parents.  Most of the time it is in spite of having good parents.

Not only that, but if we accept the idea that people who have had an influence on a person are responsible or co-responsible - legally - for anything someone does, then expect to be thrown in jail, for shit you didn't do or were even aware of.

It also implies that people are no more than the sum of their experiences, which I reject as absurd.

It's absurd and even if it wasn't, there are so many influences where do you pin the blame?  It's a silly concept.

[Cramulus]

Im just saying that people that do horrible acts should be made accountable, but also those that influenced given person to do said horrible acts. But influences can become abstractions with no sole guilty individual, who would be accountable for a crime derived from systemic poverty?

Responsibility always rests with the individual.

But I do think punishment should be calibrated to the circumstances.

Thing is, while I am against the hair shirt punishment concept that America craves, I am also sort of leery of the motives/background approach, because the logical extension of that is that we FIX people based on that, and the idea of mentally fixing people leads to a pretty deep, nasty rabbit hole.

I think that's the idea of the whole justice system though, no? Laws and punishments are means to an end. The end is a disciplined society.

If you're the kind of person who is not beholden to state power, the system is designed to change you into one. The whole justice enchilada is about fixing parts of the machine which aren't working up to code.

[Doktor Howl]

I think that's the idea of the whole justice system though, no? Laws and punishments are means to an end. The end is a disciplined society.

Not really.  The whole system is based on punishment for its own sake, and now punishment for profit.  Prison is not and has never been about rehabilitation.  The few attempts at doing so have always been struck down as "coddling criminals".

If you're the kind of person who is not beholden to state power, the system is designed to change you into one. The whole justice enchilada is about fixing parts of the machine which aren't working up to code.

Nope.  The system is designed to make you a worse criminal, so that you will return to prison in short order following your release.  The whole "justice" enchilada is about funding and - more recently - a pool of cheap labor.

This isn't cynicism, it's plain fact.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Im just saying that people that do horrible acts should be made accountable, but also those that influenced given person to do said horrible acts. But influences can become abstractions with no sole guilty individual, who would be accountable for a crime derived from systemic poverty?

Woooo...So, basically, we would convict the parents, for example, alongside the person who committed a crime?

Yeah, I'm kinda seeing the same thing here...

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Everyone is an accomplice sort of thing.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

There's a difference between understanding how it happened (with the example of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev it was the "why can't you be like more like your brother Tamerlan" sort of thing, with a bit of extra "Oh... maybe you should be better Muslims.") I mean hell, that's the entire message of this cover isn't it? Road to Hell's pavement, we are the monster we seek to kill, all that rot?

These are the nuances that certain folks I'm no longer talking to get all up in arms about and get offended by because they stopped fucking thinking and missed the point entirely.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

We need due process of law and the underpinnings of a civilized society EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE TIME OKAY

Well, due process of law is for regular Americans, not for terrorists. That's silly!

But... but... what if they are both, like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?

Don't be silly, now. He's a Muslim AND an immigrant, and that ain't American. They shoulda kept that picture out of the paper, it's already giving people bad ideas, like how he doesn't look like a Muslim immigrant oughtta look. People are going to start thinking Muslims and immigrants look like regular people.

Or worse, that they ARE people.

Now, Dok, everyone knows that being a Muslim makes you a tourist. That's why the plenty of Americans who happen to be Muslim are perfectly satisfied with being American and are pro-democracy and socially liberal. You know, kinda like Catholics who are cool with gay marriage and abortion.

You people just don't GET IT, do you?

ANYBODY can be a Moozlim. If you suspect your co-workers, neighbors, or even your own family of Moozlimizm, do the right thing and TURN THEM IN.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

anybody ever see this film?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_%282003_film%29

there is a HUGE difference between noting the influences that lead someone to do something horrible, to justifying the act.

in other words, there is a crime this person must pay for, but there's also a phonebook of people that should also should be punished, for they lead him to commit the crime, things dont exist in a vaccuum, its all context and influences.

EDIT: goddamn link, now fixed

Basically we NEED to understand what happened if we have any interest in interrupting the influences that led to it happening, and may lead to it happening again with other kids.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

anybody ever see this film?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_%282003_film%29

there is a HUGE difference between noting the influences that lead someone to do something horrible, to justifying the act.

in other words, there is a crime this person must pay for, but there's also a phonebook of people that should also should be punished, for they lead him to commit the crime, things dont exist in a vaccuum, its all context and influences.

EDIT: goddamn link, now fixed

Didn't see the movie, but I followed the case.
Fucking OUCH.