OK Cupid: Round IVXXXIX

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

Hung out with that woman i was seeing a few pages back. We've hung out a number of times now, and it's settled inot a pretty comfortable friendship. She's very easy to talk to and its nice to have a fellow big person in my life who i can eat and drink and discuss nerdy things with without feeling judged for it. Not exactly the romantic relationship i was seeking, but good times.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

correct attitude, you has it.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Hung out with that woman i was seeing a few pages back. We've hung out a number of times now, and it's settled inot a pretty comfortable friendship. She's very easy to talk to and its nice to have a fellow big person in my life who i can eat and drink and discuss nerdy things with without feeling judged for it. Not exactly the romantic relationship i was seeking, but good times.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Arguing with some poor shmuck about AI and he is woefully out of his depth. Will post logs if there's interest, but it's long as hell and his half is just kinda sad.

[hooplala]

Arguing with some poor shmuck about AI and he is woefully out of his depth. Will post logs if there's interest, but it's long as hell and his half is just kinda sad.

I'm interested.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Arguing with some poor shmuck about AI and he is woefully out of his depth. Will post logs if there's interest, but it's long as hell and his half is just kinda sad.

It's always kind of funny when a guy has his ego so tangled up with his balls that he continues arguing long past the point at which it's become embarrassing, just to avoid conceding.

I also think it's a weird and confusing impulse that some guys have, to try to impress women by showing off how much they know about crap. Man, I love a smart guy, but if the way he's trying to demonstrate his smarts is by trying to talk down to me or make me feel dumb, he's off to a bad start.

[hooplala]

Arguing with some poor shmuck about AI and he is woefully out of his depth. Will post logs if there's interest, but it's long as hell and his half is just kinda sad.

It's always kind of funny when a guy has his ego so tangled up with his balls that he continues arguing long past the point at which it's become embarrassing, just to avoid conceding.

I also think it's a weird and confusing impulse that some guys have, to try to impress women by showing off how much they know about crap. Man, I love a smart guy, but if the way he's trying to demonstrate his smarts is by trying to talk down to me or make me feel dumb, he's off to a bad start.

To be fair, I know some women like this too.  Not as many, but they exist too.

[hooplala]

Oh fuck... did I just do a variation of "not all men"?

[Cain]

#NOTALLDATINGSITES

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Arguing with some poor shmuck about AI and he is woefully out of his depth. Will post logs if there's interest, but it's long as hell and his half is just kinda sad.

It's always kind of funny when a guy has his ego so tangled up with his balls that he continues arguing long past the point at which it's become embarrassing, just to avoid conceding.

I also think it's a weird and confusing impulse that some guys have, to try to impress women by showing off how much they know about crap. Man, I love a smart guy, but if the way he's trying to demonstrate his smarts is by trying to talk down to me or make me feel dumb, he's off to a bad start.

To be fair, I know some women like this too.  Not as many, but they exist too.

It's not a contest.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Idiot: Please talk my ears off about scifi, science, tech and pretty much anything that you seem versed in. Do you like the twilight zone? There's lots of different concepts about reality and psychology.

And I don't have a wife so you don't have to give me that run down again. Feel like you do a lot

Me: I sure do love unsolicited messages from men telling me that I'm wrong for announcing that I am not cool with being a participant in unethical non-monogamy! Especially the guy who argued for an hour that it's mean to use the word cheating to describe his behavior!

Anyway, I'm super into robots right now between the kids picking up Portal as a hobby and the awesome AI from Interstellar over the summer. Do you have any thoughts on strong AI, robot uprisings and the like?

Idiot: That's all you got to talk my ear off? Kind of weak..

Even though will smith movies are kind of cheesy. irobot does have a solid concept to it. The idea of having AI progress to a point of self awareness then having it actual care about our survival is clever.... I personally think like all life, if an AI system became sentient it would turn on us in a sort of "self preservation."

Me: While Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk both agree with you, I'm completely on the other side of the fence. There isn't any intelligent creature of any stripe that doesn't show the capability of some form of empathy and cooperation. While I'm right up there with the other folks in pointing out that bottle nosed dolphins can be dicks (and there was a small gang of bottle nosed child [dolphin] rapists and murderers cruising the pacific for a while), they are also capable of choosing to work with people. In captivity, dolphins name their trainers and develop emotional bonds with them. Russian street dogs have developed their own packs and have relationships with humans that are very different from those of pet dogs. They do not attack humans (outside of startling them to steal their food), doing so would be incredibly stupid. Elephants will certainly trample villiages looking for booze, but it's usually asshole elephants and there are others that develop long lasting and meaningful bonds with humans.

Over and over again, when we deal with any non-human intelligence, we find that cooperation and a vague sense of warm regard if not outright friendliness is the most efficient way of getting things done. Some individuals will be assholes, but they can be excluded from productive relationships after their true colors are shown. If you're into game theory at all, that's been proven to be the most productive strategy: cooperate until you've been betrayed, and then never work with that particular fucker again.

I think we're overly pessimistic because our current systems of government and business keep putting sociopaths in positions of power. Since we can't seem to stop blowing each other up over resources and generally be assholes at each other, we come to the conclusion that all intelligences are also assholes. This is demonstrably false even if you're just looking at humans: most people are generally pretty amiable with occasional episodes of dickishness and a slight tendency towards self preservation and the preservation of close allies over others. We work best in groups from 12 to about 50, and in gatherings of more than 200-300 we start to be more prone to dickery because our little primate brains have trouble thinking of ALL THOSE PEOPLE as being people too. We can still forge relationships outside of our circles. We can forge partnerships with people who don't look like us. We can even negotiate trade agreements with animals!

Any intelligence strong enough to pose a threat to humanity would have to be nearly as smart as we are, and that includes empathy and the urge to cooperate. It's my firm belief that strong AI would be even better than humans are at forging relationships outside of their own kind.

There is the potential for things to go horribly wrong, of course. Humans could fail to recognize the dignity of artificial intelligences and abuse them to the point that violent resistance is the only viable option. If you've seen the Animatrix they outline one such scenario, but I don't believe that's the most likely outcome either. We don't have very smart robots yet, but humans are already displaying the same sort of empathy towards them we do towards animals. Soldiers name bomb diffusing robots, feel sad when they are destroyed, and even hold funerals. A test of a land mine diffusing (read:exploding) robot was aborted partway through as the army colonel declared it "inhumane."

No, the most likely course of action in my eyes is that we are mostly good to them, with a few exceptions, and they are mostly good to us, with a few exceptions.

Idiot: I think you have a view of a perfect world. Those values can't be applied now to what we have. War, abuse and violence is a staple of society. Thinking that we bring a new form of "life" into the world and we'll use and treat it right is naive. The difference all people have will have us using the AI against each other. Any form of AI that is controllable I believe will be used as war machines.

If you want to talk about a truly sentient system where it thinks acts and makes decisions on its own, I'm far more fearful of that. Just like through the timeline of human evolution. Each time a new species came, the less evolved kind was immediately killed off and extinct. A newly developed "species" if you want to call the AI, would definitely see our way of life and tendencies to be violent. It would find that as a threat and want it dealt.

I have a more bleak view of humanity. I think taking the mass of us. We're going to be bad and do the wrong things. On an individual scale, of course we can forge relationships with others. The reason we can be friendly with dogs, cats and other animals is because of the intelligence barrier. An AI system that can see and learn what we're really like. Just like if you saw someone and heard they killed someone. Your view will be skewed and not be so kind

Me: I'm basing my view on the real world. Do you want me to cite sources, or is being pessimistic how you convince yourself you're smart?

Idiot: If you wanna be rude and argue then fine... Give me 1 source of something good then I'll give you 10 of something bad

Idiot: And pointing fingers and being rude is how weak people act

Idiot: I guess your right though. Siri isn't plotting to kill us, dragon dictation doesn't have any ideas on world domination so, yes your right

Me: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/05/AR2007050501009.html
http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/reddit-military-robot-empathy/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/earthnews/3323070/Killer-dolphins-baffle-marine-experts.html
http://www.globalelephants.org/effects-humans-captive-elephants/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_dogs_in_Moscow
http://www.iiasa.ac.at/publication/more_XJ-10-174.php
http://news.discovery.com/animals/elephants-added-to-list-of-animals-that-show-empathy-140218.htm

I also recommend reading Future of the Mind by Michio Kaku

Idiot: Ok. Straighten out exactly what level your talking about.... A robot with a person, a computer AI on a laptop, or a fully aware AI system and the whole world... We might be on different subjects
Idiot: Are you talking small scale?
Idiot: I was talking large scale like irobot

Me: You seem really stuck on I, Robot. Did you read the book or are you just pulling from the movie?

Idiot: That exactly fits my type of view on what would happen... Since something like that hasn't happened yet in real life that's the only reference I have to show you.... If you were talking more about having feelings for an Automaton or robot. I was off base then

Me: You didn't answer the question.
Me: Oh, I missed this link in that other post: http://dronecenter.bard.edu/interview-professor-robot-love/

Idiot: Half the book and the movie
Idiot: What's your point of having love for a robot?

Me: So your position is that the first strong AI we develop will be used for the military, and therefore hate humans and wreck everything?

Idiot: A self aware system... Full able to think on its own and make its own choices, yes... What kind of situation would it be able to freely move on its own? What life form likes being kept under control and told what to do?
Idiot: It's gonna be strictly controlled and regulated to make sure it's not a threat. What being likes to be locked up?

Me: You can't freely move on your own.
You need paperwork to leave the country, a license to operate a car or boat, your phone collects and reports data about your location to dozens of entities with and without your knowledge, your emails are read and your internet traffic monitored. Are you planning on overthrowing humanity?

Idiot: I can get up get in a car and not have to tell anyone or have someone know. People still go missing

Me: So you're okay with the level of restrictions placed on your travel?

Idiot: Are we not in a war with people lobbing bombs and commit terrier acts?

Me: And the level of monitoring and regulations you're subject to?

Idiot: Your talking as if life's perfect and I'm saying the robot would go nuts

Idiot: What do you think will happen??

Idiot: Correct me

Me: Your only basis for that conjecture is that you think people are horrible and war is terrible and never ending. I suspect you are also the kind of person who talks about the crime rate like it's on the rise, and that terrorism is a real and serious threat to your physical safety.

Is that correct?

Idiot: Nope. I'm not bothered by any of that... This is the most intense Congo I've had around that subject

Idiot: Convo

Idiot: I go into bad neighborhoods and don't blink an eye

Me: Okay, so do you believe that people are, on balance, just slightly better than morally neutral and unlikely to antagonize strangers without provocation?

Me: Also are you reading any of the links I'm sending you? If not it's cool I just want to get us on the same page for this conversation.

Idiot: I'm at work so I read a couple headings and an intro to kne

Idiot: In individual circumstances I believe someone would be more good then bad

Me: If you believe in general that more interactions will be positive or at least neutral than negative, you need to provide some very compelling evidence why it would be different on a global scale.

Humans suffer from tribalism due to our genetic heritage, something that AI may not suffer from at all, or may only to a lesser extent. This enables large scale violence over resource acquisition. Without the "my tribe over all others" and with the inevitable ethics and obligation to follow established laws of warfare, robots would be unlikely to wage wars against humanity that are any worse than the ones we inflict on one another. And it's very likely that if we are able to build AIs that fight, they will fight one another too.

If you are talking singularity level intelligence, it is still unlikely to look at humanity and go "that's a problem, let's wipe them out." It would be much easier to just pick up and leave for another planet, or the asteroid belt, or to seed the galaxy with nanobabies.

Idiot: What does every thing that has a function Brain strive for? I believe that it's freedom. No one really wants to have someone sitting over them and give them orders
Idiot: What kind of life do you picture it living?
Idiot: Taking orders?
Idiot: I'm not saying if your nice to it that it wouldn't be nice back
Idiot: If a robot is going to be built its going to be built for a purpose.
Idiot: Throughout human history of slavery, war and persecution of those who don't conform, you think a new life form will be treated fairly and just?

Me: I think robots would be very good at conforming. I think they would be very good at using existing systems to advocate for their own rights, and I believe that most people will be open to the idea of a non living intelligence having some kinds of rights. I don't think they will always be treated fairly and I don't think they will be completely free, but neither are humans now and most of them aren't plotting to overthrow the entire species.

Idiot: Because there part of the species... Everywhere in the world there trying to overthrow their governments and leaders

Me: So the robots would try to overthrow a class of humanity?

Idiot: It may be a loose comparison but a invading species comes to America we try to kill it. Bedbugs, different types of invasive plant life

Me: That's a terrible comparison. Bedbugs and kudzu aren't intelligent in the least.

Idiot: I'm blanking on the correct word.... It's the concept of having something foreign to you come and us killing it
Idiot: And why does intelligence matter
Idiot: People beat their pets and kids and shoot eachother

Me: Because people have more empathy for dogs than mosquitoes.
Me: People do not hurt strangers except in cases of extreme mental illness or duress. People hurt individuals close to them as emotional outbursts or while under extreme duress. It is not the default state to be murdering your friends.
Me: And again on the subject of why intelligence matters, here's two cases of governments declaring intelligent animals to be non human persons with certain rights that the state is obligated to protect:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/30/1226634/-India-Declares-Dolphins-Non-Human-Persons-Dolphin-shows-BANNED
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/21/orangutan-argentina-zoo-recognised-court-non-human-person

Idiot: And I'll show you a million pharmaceutical companies doing animal testing. A couple saved animals doesn't amount to the millions of murdered ones

Me: A million? Please do.

Idiot: You show one instance of something good and apply that to everyone.... Is your example of a few instances of human compassion suppose to prove your point

Idiot: And why does the government have to declare these two animals with non human rights... Because people are assholes and will take advantage and abuse whatever suites them... Just like they would abuse and misuse any new life form presented to the

Idiot: Them

Me: The government is a body that represents the will of the people. They made those decisions due to public outcry.

Idiot: You believe that?

Me: Why else exactly would they?

Idiot: You talk of everything with wide eyes... Every instance you mention is a single instance of human decency or compassion... There's a genocide of an entire race of people but who cares about that cause someone loves a puppy... Do you not know what corruption is? Back room deals and bribery?
Idiot: Of those things don't matter because a person fell in love with their computer

Me: Who is going to bribe a computer to destroy the world?

[hooplala]

This is the same guy?! The one who got pissed at how you referred to it as cheating?

Good gravy.  What a specimen.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

No, it is a new person. He was referencing my allcaps yelling at that guy in my profile.

[hooplala]

I posted my last response before reading it all.  Now I've finished... holy shit, what an incredible asshole.  You are a saint for continuing to talk to him as long as you did.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I like how he wouldn't read the articles because he was at work, but chatting on OKC? No Problem!

It was also pretty great the way he somehow managed to boil down the legal reclassification of dolphins and orangutans to "saving two animals". Um.

But by far, my favorite was his tactic of attempting to discount your intelligence by demeaning you as "naive".

WHAT A CHARMER.