Santo Daime

[Ixxie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime

Curious organization, with an insane combination of Christianity, Amazon Jungle Shamanism, and African Animism amongst others - even integrating Yoga in the mix.

So, I went to one of their rituals and consumed the Daime (the Sacrament = Ayahuasca + a Special Blessing Ritual). I think I will go again, despite the slight vibe of indoctrination and Christianity that left a bad taste in my mouth. After all - 20 euros for a good dose of Ayahuasca is fair pricing, and they supply the buckets and towels and everything! In any case I am curious to learn some of their more useful techniques and beliefs - my buddy is into it and says there is a whole religious revolution in South America with some crazy panmixia of a variety of traditions.

Anybody has experience with them?

[Kai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime

Curious organization, with an insane combination of Christianity, Amazon Jungle Shamanism, and African Animism amongst others - even integrating Yoga in the mix.

So, I went to one of their rituals and consumed the Daime (the Sacrament = Ayahuasca + a Special Blessing Ritual). I think I will go again, despite the slight vibe of indoctrination and Christianity that left a bad taste in my mouth. After all - 20 euros for a good dose of Ayahuasca is fair pricing, and they supply the buckets and towels and everything! In any case I am curious to learn some of their more useful techniques and beliefs - my buddy is into it and says there is a whole religious revolution in South America with some crazy panmixia of a variety of traditions.

Anybody has experience with them?

I find it kind of strange that you were willing to down DMT in a place/situation not under your control.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Aside from what kai said what is it about christianity that leaves a bad taste in your mouth? What are these more useful beliefs and techniques? If theyre drug related theres nothing really to learn other than dosage. Also whats more appealing about a spirituality thats patched together with bits from everywhere which might be incompatible or out of context?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Drug religion.  Fantastic.

In my day, we just got fucked up and didn't invent elaborate excuses for it.

[Kai]

Aside from what kai said what is it about christianity that leaves a bad taste in your mouth? What are these more useful beliefs and techniques? If theyre drug related theres nothing really to learn other than dosage. Also whats more appealing about a spirituality thats patched together with bits from everywhere which might be incompatible or out of context?

Second these questions. Seems to me that 'new age' style religions can be even more useless than a carefully constructed cult, as the disparate parts don't really fit together well enough to be useful. Cf. Alan Moore's arguments about religion.

Also, cf. Discordianism, which is a new and constructed religion yet is more than a mixmash of rituals. Discordianism, as Nigel has pointed out before, contains a complete and useful worldview.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Drug religion.  Fantastic.

In my day, we just got fucked up and didn't invent elaborate excuses for it.

I imagine tripping at church is funnier if the priest doesnt know.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Aside from what kai said what is it about christianity that leaves a bad taste in your mouth? What are these more useful beliefs and techniques? If theyre drug related theres nothing really to learn other than dosage. Also whats more appealing about a spirituality thats patched together with bits from everywhere which might be incompatible or out of context?

Second these questions. Seems to me that 'new age' style religions can be even more useless than a carefully constructed cult, as the disparate parts don't really fit together well enough to be useful. Cf. Alan Moore's arguments about religion.

Also, cf. Discordianism, which is a new and constructed religion yet is more than a mixmash of rituals. Discordianism, as Nigel has pointed out before, contains a complete and useful worldview.

Exactly. Not to say that you cant form a useful fusion religion if you really wanted to but the pieces should fit and it seems like new age type of stuff loves to take a concept out of context and just graft it on to something else. Karma jumps to mind. Also if ixxie is getting a vibe of indoctrination from them he shouldnt go back at all. Plenty of cults are able to pull that off without providing you with drugs to make you more malleable. The 20 euros might not be much of a bargain in the long run.

[Ixxie]

I find it kind of strange that you were willing to down DMT in a place/situation not under your control.

Control is an Illusion, and after plenty of psychedelic experiences under my belt - I am not too concerned. Besides the setting is an Evangelical Church (its legal in the Netherlands so they use normal churches xD), and they have people who act as "trip sitters" to help those in distress. They are singing all through the ritual, and people are arranged in a circle divided by age groups and sexes so that the opposite sex of your age group is on the opposite side of the circle. The arrangement is quite nice I find, and I felt nice vibes so I don't at all mind taking psychedelics there. Besides the Daime felt more stable than acid even, just as acid feels more stable than shrooms (might be my increasing experience but either way it was reassuring).

Aside from what kai said what is it about christianity that leaves a bad taste in your mouth? What are these more useful beliefs and techniques? If theyre drug related theres nothing really to learn other than dosage. Also whats more appealing about a spirituality thats patched together with bits from everywhere which might be incompatible or out of context?

I agree on the second assertion - I love this patchwork aspect of the Santo Daime, and certainly it fits the spirit of Discordianism  this is why I posted it here! And this is not the reason the Santo Daime left a bad taste.  The Christianity issue- I readily admit - stems from deep rooted prejudice on my part; so many churches advocate a view of guilt and sin which I cannot understand nor accept. There is no rational support for this position as I know of course there are many Christian Churches which are more relaxed on this position. But most of all - the aspect of the Santo Daime which made me uncomfortable is the Anerisian tendency - the strictness they put on the ritual, the emphasis they put on devotional work, and the seemingly emphatic certainty they put on their beliefs.  It just seems a tad dogmatic..... and I am not saying these things are bad in and of themselves, they just don't suit my particular taste.

A Footnote about calling the Daime - their sacrament - a Drug: they would be offended since they distinguish the Daime even from 'normal' Ayahuasca. As for the 'nothing to learn but dosage' statement - I completely disagree. I consider drugs to be complex cognitive tools, and keep learning new ways to use them. Ayahuasca felt like a very powerful and deep tool with both great potential and - from what people say - many aspects to learn (they say 'if you think you know the Daime, you don't know the Daime').

The very interesting combination of religious traditions is very appealing indeed. The animism / spiritism aspect - the Shamanistic treatment of Spirits (which I consider to be the ineffable aspects of a concept flying around the nusphere) - these aspects interest me. In addition, like I mentioned in another thread, I am interested in an expanded version of the trinity for the construction of a language for talking about ineffable (i.e. Non-Dual) aspects of experience. Their wide pantheon of spirits and deities seems to construct a complex multifarious language for various aspects of the divine and their interaction. Their use of the Daime as a Yoga is also fascinating (many consume it every two weeks!) and seems to be at least *some* evidence for improvement on many cognitive metrics [ http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0042421 ]  with the main side effect being believing really strange things and possible becoming socially isolated due to those beliefs.

This issue of beliefs is the one that concerned me most, for one thing I want to avoid is entering a situation where I believe anything with too much certainty. However - I think I will continue exploring the Daime to learn, and consider it a test of my ability to keep detached.

Aside from what kai said what is it about christianity that leaves a bad taste in your mouth? What are these more useful beliefs and techniques? If theyre drug related theres nothing really to learn other than dosage. Also whats more appealing about a spirituality thats patched together with bits from everywhere which might be incompatible or out of context?

Second these questions. Seems to me that 'new age' style religions can be even more useless than a carefully constructed cult, as the disparate parts don't really fit together well enough to be useful. Cf. Alan Moore's arguments about religion.

Also, cf. Discordianism, which is a new and constructed religion yet is more than a mixmash of rituals. Discordianism, as Nigel has pointed out before, contains a complete and useful worldview.

Exactly. Not to say that you cant form a useful fusion religion if you really wanted to but the pieces should fit and it seems like new age type of stuff loves to take a concept out of context and just graft it on to something else. Karma jumps to mind. Also if ixxie is getting a vibe of indoctrination from them he shouldnt go back at all. Plenty of cults are able to pull that off without providing you with drugs to make you more malleable. The 20 euros might not be much of a bargain in the long run.

I feel the Santo Daime draws on many ancient traditions with a depth of understanding that calls for it to be distinguished from your typical 'new age' hokum. These guys should not be underestimated imo, they make a potent combination of religions from 3-4 continents.

As for indoctrination - Jedi Mind tricks only work on the weak minded xD I'm gonna dip into this thing a bit and use the Sacred Chao, #discord and peedee as my escape rope. So when I go again, I will report here. If I get brainwashed, please throw some garbage back in there!

[Cramulus]

Interesting - I had never heard of Santo Daime.

I was reading their wikipedia article, and I found it interesting that they transmit their teachings through hymns. And they do not consider the hymns to be written by church members, but rather "received" from a spiritual source. Very cool!

I looked up a few santo daime hymns on youtube, very beautiful. Much better than the stuffy organ music I listened to in the Episcopal church as a kid.

Ixxie, I'm not sure if this term works here, but would you consider Santo Daime a part of the gnostic tradition?

[Ixxie]

I am afraid I do not know enough about either religion to say if there is any relation, I can ask my gnostic friend though.....

The hymns were pretty beautiful yes, although after a ceremony I can tell you a few spots don't quite sit right with me still. I guess the combination of that exposure and reading Joyce's 'Portrait helped me understand the Christian stand point better, but it just still seems like a kind of normative ethically. Ayahuasca is probably the best psychedelic I have tasted yet - I would call it wHoly - at least somewhat wHolier than MDMA or LSD or Shrooms, certainly wHolier than Coke or Speed. But that's a matter of taste ofc xD

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Drug religion.  Fantastic.

In my day, we just got fucked up and didn't invent elaborate excuses for it.

I imagine tripping at church is funnier if the priest doesnt know.

I'd never be able to hide it.  I turn into a Goddamn animal when I'm tripping.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Drug religion.  Fantastic.

In my day, we just got fucked up and didn't invent elaborate excuses for it.

I imagine tripping at church is funnier if the priest doesnt know.

I'd never be able to hide it.  I turn into a Goddamn animal when I'm tripping.

Well i guess the surprised look on everyones face is just as good. Might also be fun to pull on the faith healing speaking in tongues crowd.
Ixxie- i do understand holding a bit of a grudge with christianity but its not particularly productive when you find out that some of your friends are bisexual born agains who are basically liberals who really love jesus. Its part of the reason i started my spiritual journey with a return to catholicism. Aside from it being familiar ground it was a means of removing any remaining animosity i had with it.
Speaking of which i wouldnt get offended if someone called the blood of christ booze. Because thats what it is. Booze. Ayahuasca is a drug. Chanting over either might add spiritual significance to it but it doesnt change its chemical structure.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Drug religion.  Fantastic.

In my day, we just got fucked up and didn't invent elaborate excuses for it.

I imagine tripping at church is funnier if the priest doesnt know.

I'd never be able to hide it.  I turn into a Goddamn animal when I'm tripping.

Wait.

How do I join this church?

muhaha

[Ixxie]

Ixxie- i do understand holding a bit of a grudge with christianity but its not particularly productive when you find out that some of your friends are bisexual born agains who are basically liberals who really love jesus. Its part of the reason i started my spiritual journey with a return to catholicism. Aside from it being familiar ground it was a means of removing any remaining animosity i had with it.
Speaking of which i wouldnt get offended if someone called the blood of christ booze. Because thats what it is. Booze. Ayahuasca is a drug. Chanting over either might add spiritual significance to it but it doesnt change its chemical structure.

Like I said I gained a lot more respect for Christianity in recent years. Its only a couple of years ago I was a Naive Rationalist New Atheist type, but the situation is somewhat reversed now. It seems self awareness means continuously having to brain washing yourself. The religion has some strong points and I would like to learn more about it. I try to work on my prejudices, and see the value in anything.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Ixxie- i do understand holding a bit of a grudge with christianity but its not particularly productive when you find out that some of your friends are bisexual born agains who are basically liberals who really love jesus. Its part of the reason i started my spiritual journey with a return to catholicism. Aside from it being familiar ground it was a means of removing any remaining animosity i had with it.
Speaking of which i wouldnt get offended if someone called the blood of christ booze. Because thats what it is. Booze. Ayahuasca is a drug. Chanting over either might add spiritual significance to it but it doesnt change its chemical structure.

Like I said I gained a lot more respect for Christianity in recent years. Its only a couple of years ago I was a Naive Rationalist New Atheist type, but the situation is somewhat reversed now. It seems self awareness means continuously having to brain washing yourself. The religion has some strong points and I would like to learn more about it. I try to work on my prejudices, and see the value in anything.

Preferably, self-awareness would involve no brainwashing.

I did not have to brainwash myself in order to be a Catholic again, nor will I have to brainwash myself to cease being a Catholic. Haven't decided on the next stop yet, but it will be a conscious decision, of my own free will.