Victim Blaming Bullshit or Sage Advice?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Okay so there's this article in xoJane. http://www.xojane.com/relationships/stop-saying-i-have-a-boyfriend

Basic gist is that women need to stop claiming they have boyfriends to curb unwanted male attention. This is a bad thing that implies women can't decide things for themselves and a man already has a claim on them and etc.

To quote :

It completely removes the agency of the woman, her ability to speak for herself and make her own decisions regarding when and where the conversation begins or ends. It is basically a real-life example of feminist theory at work–women (along with women's choices, desires, etc.) being considered supplemental to or secondary to men, be it the man with whom she is interacting or the man to whom she "belongs" (see the theory of Simone de Beauvoir, the story of Adam and Eve, etc.).

And the worst part of the whole situation is that we're doing this to ourselves.

Fine and dandy.

However.

A rebuttal article went up on xoJane. http://www.xojane.com/issues/why-just-telling-street-harassers-no-doesnt-necessarily-work-for-everybody

It points out that just straight up saying 'no' or 'not interested' can put a woman in danger.

Ms. Eberhardt is spot on when she writes about the idiocy of leaving an uninterested woman alone only after she says she's taken; it does remove the level of respect that should be given to her, and it totally erases her agency.

But when Ms. Eberhardt admonishes women for making excuses to would-be suitors, she's unwittingly placing the responsibility squarely on the victim, as if the guys with the entitlement issues aren't the real problem. It's this type of naivete and myopia that make conversations about racialized misogyny so, so crucial.

Skepchick has chimed in, too. http://skepchick.org/2013/09/boyfriend/

In my experience, many men take any kind of response from a woman they're hitting on, any kind of reaction at all, to be good. The theory that all publicity is good publicity is not lost on those kind. By saying "no" to a man like that, a woman is acknowledging his presence and the fact that he is hitting on her, which, alone, is a win for him. He could take it as a challenge, a reason to engage and pursue, an opportunity to debate the woman as to his merits as a man.

Other men take it further and believe that a no is merely a yes in disguise. A "no" will mean escalation, often into the physical: cornering, following/stalking, groping, and so on. Still other men take it even further, interpreting the "no" as a challenge to their manhood and a personal insult to them. Reactions range from insults ("you're not even that hot! no wonder you're single, turning down a good dude like me!") to threats ("I'll show you what a real man is!") to physical violence (grabbing, pushing, shoving) to various forms of sexual assault (so-called "corrective rape" is an extreme, LGBT-specific example of this).

I think blaming women for some mens inability to take a 'no' with grace is complete bullshit and I don't think it's wrong to use the boyfriend excuse. It isn't optimal or ideal but what is?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Pretty much what you've said: It's absolute suck ass bullshit that we live in a culture where "I'm not interested" isn't respected and can lead to dangerous escalation, but because we do it is also bullshit to blame women for using less-escalating outs like "I'm already taken".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Basically, as women, if we're in a situation where it's safe to just say "Thanks, not interested", it is responsible to do so, but if you don't feel safe, say whatever you feel will end the unwanted interaction.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Pretty much what you've said: It's absolute suck ass bullshit that we live in a culture where "I'm not interested" isn't respected and can lead to dangerous escalation, but because we do it is also bullshit to blame women for using less-escalating outs like "I'm already taken".

This! I see a fine line between victim blaming and what actually happened. ie. Who is is in the wrong? Guy - obviously but who did something really, really dumb given the circumstances? Same goes for guys - If you happen to find yourself in Easterhouse on a staurday night, being approached by half a dozen youngsters with bottles and machetes, maybe standing your ground aint the smart choice?

[Junkenstein]

Pretty much what you've said: It's absolute suck ass bullshit that we live in a culture where "I'm not interested" isn't respected and can lead to dangerous escalation, but because we do it is also bullshit to blame women for using less-escalating outs like "I'm already taken".

This! I see a fine line between victim blaming and what actually happened. ie. Who is is in the wrong? Guy - obviously but who did something really, really dumb given the circumstances? Same goes for guys - If you happen to find yourself in Easterhouse on a staurday night, being approached by half a dozen youngsters with bottles and machetes, maybe standing your ground aint the smart choice?

You've already made some terrible decisions if that's happened to you anyway. I doubt you'll start acting smart now.

Basically, as women, if we're in a situation where it's safe to just say "Thanks, not interested", it is responsible to do so, but if you don't feel safe, say whatever you feel will end the unwanted interaction.

The shitter seems to be that anything can be construed as invitation to continue. The simple answer would seem to be carry mace or somesuch and be willing to use it after the 2nd "NO". That will likely not end well for anyone.

[Reginald Ret]

Pretty much what you've said: It's absolute suck ass bullshit that we live in a culture where "I'm not interested" isn't respected and can lead to dangerous escalation, but because we do it is also bullshit to blame women for using less-escalating outs like "I'm already taken".

This! I see a fine line between victim blaming and what actually happened. ie. Who is is in the wrong? Guy - obviously but who did something really, really dumb given the circumstances? Same goes for guys - If you happen to find yourself in Easterhouse on a staurday night, being approached by half a dozen youngsters with bottles and machetes, maybe standing your ground aint the smart choice?

You've already made some terrible decisions if that's happened to you anyway. I doubt you'll start acting smart now.

Basically, as women, if we're in a situation where it's safe to just say "Thanks, not interested", it is responsible to do so, but if you don't feel safe, say whatever you feel will end the unwanted interaction.

The shitter seems to be that anything can be construed as invitation to continue. The simple answer would seem to be carry mace nukes or somesuch and be willing to use it after the 2nd "NO". That will likely not end well for anyone.

Thermonuclear deterrents: the only option left.
I know I should be taking this subject seriously, but the mental image of all women carrying tiny nukes with deadman switches to prevent being bothered by men tickles me.

[Junkenstein]

You know, I've been toying with the idea of grenades as defensive weapons for a while. As Return of the Jedi shows, they're quite a handy negotiating tool.

[Suu]

I had an altercation at a concert I went to last year. These two men, probably in their 40s-50s were very drunk before the headliner even came on, shit, before the first band was done, and started hitting on me. I played it cool, and tried to back away, but they kept it up.

One kept saying, "I bet you have a boyfriend in here, and he's gonna see us and kick our asses, right? You're just gonna tell us you have a boyfriend." Which made it harder for me to escape without breaking jaws. I guess my body language was bad enough, to where these three guys who were down from Boston saw me, and came to my aid.

One came up quickly, handed me a beer and went, "SWEETIE! There you are, we lost you in the crowd, come stand with ME and the BOYS." I caught on pretty fast, gave him my hand and he scooted me away without issue from the drunks. So not only was I in a position where I was about to have to physically defend myself in a large crowd, but I was saved by nice men who saw me ready to kill. Apparently, they wanted to talk music since I was wearing my Tool hoodie, and then when they saw the assholes, they swept in for the rescue. I hung out with them for the rest of the night, drinking beers and talking music. It was nice. They were all married and having a guys night out, but they didn't want me to get thrown out of the show for punching drunks.  Probably one of the most fun I had solo at a show in ages.

However, the fact that I was such an easy target for one (despite being that goth chick in the oversized Tool hoodie) and I had to be saved...yeah. I kinda don't know what would have happened if those guys hadn't gotten me out of the situation. Clearly the drunks shouldn't have started it in the first place, but if I had been hurt, chances are someone would have said something to the effect of "I was asking for it" being at a concert by myself. 

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Yeesh, Suu. I'm glad you didn't get kicked out for feeding someone's ass to them.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

There seems to be a general sense of "It's the woman's responsibility to educate men about their behavior." versus "Stay safe." And that's kinda ridiculous.

[Junkenstein]

Also the "Educate, unless/until you don't feel safe" thing. Those that are likely to get it are not likely to be behaving inappropriately. Those that don't get it are going to guarantee a bad outcome. So, Grenades all round then.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Agreed Pizza, we don't live in a perfect world and humans aren't alwasy the most intelligent things to try to educate. Everyone, women included, should do whatever they can do to remain safe.

When I was studying Morazzo, the master of fighting constantly made comments which stressed survival over everything. If you had a chance to break the opponents nose, kick them in the groin or trip them, it was heavily encouraged. He said "The earth is your largest weapon and its always with you. Hit your opponent with it as often as possible". He also trained moves that positioned the person to run away if the attack failed.

Living life is pretty much the same, do whatever you can do to stay alive and safe.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Agreed Pizza, we don't live in a perfect world and humans aren't alwasy the most intelligent things to try to educate. Everyone, women included, should do whatever they can do to remain safe.

When I was studying Morazzo, the master of fighting constantly made comments which stressed survival over everything. If you had a chance to break the opponents nose, kick them in the groin or trip them, it was heavily encouraged. He said "The earth is your largest weapon and its always with you. Hit your opponent with it as often as possible". He also trained moves that positioned the person to run away if the attack failed.

Living life is pretty much the same, do whatever you can do to stay alive and safe.

Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, when you're having fun hurting the living shit out of some asshole, it's easy to forget the mission. The mission is almost always to not be in a fight, thereby eliminating the dangers of injury to self or legal repercussions arising from the hurty-part. Keep a clear head and look for the exits. Best way to win any fight is to not be in it. If a bit of fun can't be avoided then remember that the dude(s) standing in front of you are not opponents. They are obstacles standing between you and the exit.

[Suu]

Yeesh, Suu. I'm glad you didn't get kicked out for feeding someone's ass to them.

Despite the fact that I've only had to resort to physical defense ONCE in my 9 years of living as a pedestrian resident of Providence, I think my track record is golden. I think it's my constant pissed off face.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Yeesh, Suu. I'm glad you didn't get kicked out for feeding someone's ass to them.

Despite the fact that I've only had to resort to physical defense ONCE in my 9 years of living as a pedestrian resident of Providence, I think my track record is golden. I think it's my constant pissed off face.

I too, have Bitchy Resting Face, and it is a help. But it isn't a perfect defense. Woe!