Trigger warning: Drugs

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And the "real potheads" part doesn't even make sense. It's like saying that the "real wine connoisseurs have moved on to vodka".

Nonsense. Real wine connoisseurs have moved on to port. It's classier.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure there's a bunch of UK studies showing "legal highs" (mainly marijuana look/"feel"alkies) are almost universally worse than the actual drug.

Once again, because, drug thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt


See you in 30 pages, have fun.

Heroin is misclassified.  If it is pure and of known potency it doesn't cause all that much physical harm.

Please present your credentials placing you as a better judge of this than the VAST amount of research Nutt put into that chart and as a direct result, getting himself sacked.

Just going with everything I have read on the subject.  Heroin is incredibly addictive, moreso than any other substance as far as I can tell, but the health problems from it are mostly due either to impurities or junkies not taking care of themselves in other ways cause they don't care cause they are on heroin, or from the problems with injecting.

So basically you're saying that other than being highly addictive and rapidly tolerance-forming, if it is free from contamination and dosage error and they don't get complications at the injection sites from frequent injections and if they can just take care of themselves appropriately while being addicted to it, heroin is pretty much perfectly safe.

Yep. I think I agree with that.

Yep, basically exactly that.  as opposed to methamphetemine, which even if pure  nd of known quality and all those other qualifiers still eats your bones and teeth

Really? Citation?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

[Pergamos]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

[AFK]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

Do you have some research that backs this up?

[Pergamos]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

Do you have some research that backs this up?

That meth and coke in pure form and of known potency still do damage or that Heroin doesn't do that much?

[AFK]

The latter, the supposed relative harmlessness of heroin that you are talking about.  I'd like to see some research that backs up this idea.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

I think it is factually accurate to assign it the level of physical harm that users actually suffer, even if they suffer those levels of harm because the drug is adulterated, because they are administering it unsafely, because they are unable to administer an accurate dose, or because the method of administration is itself at risk for harmful effect. Why? Because all those factors actually exist in fact.

[Pergamos]

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/heroin-abuse-addiction/what-are-long-term-effects-heroin-use

It says right at the top that the worst problem with long term heroin use is addiction and if you look at the long term problems only arthritis is not a result of the method of use (that is injection)

I want to be clear that I am not advocating for heroin use, even in a safe legal environment where dirty needles were not a problem and it was of known potency and purity it would still cause heroin addiction, which is a really absolutely awful thing.  I am just not happy with the graph conflating addiction potential (which is the real problem with heroin) with physical harm.

Also, Nigel, the problems of adulteration and unknown potency also exist for any other illegal drug, yes they make heroin worse than it would be if it was not a street drug, but they also make coke and meth worse than they would be if they were not street drugs and as far as physical harm goes they are worse to begin with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have been given both morphine and cocaine medically, and I'm just fine... they are perfectly safe to use in controlled medical settings. That doesn't make them necessarily safe taken by laypersons for fun without medical supervision, even if they COULD get them guaranteed medical grade. I do, unfortunately, have rather extensive experience with heroin addicts, given that my first boyfriend, who later became my first husband, was one, and he, along with two of his sisters and many of his friends, was deeply enmeshed in Portland's now-legendary heroin culture.

Don't go prancing around bandying about your precious opinion that heroin isn't really that dangerous. You don't know shit.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/heroin-abuse-addiction/what-are-long-term-effects-heroin-use

It says right at the top that the worst problem with long term heroin use is addiction and if you look at the long term problems only arthritis is not a result of the method of use (that is injection)

I want to be clear that I am not advocating for heroin use, even in a safe legal environment where dirty needles were not a problem and it was of known potency and purity it would still cause heroin addiction, which is a really absolutely awful thing.  I am just not happy with the graph conflating addiction potential (which is the real problem with heroin) with physical harm.

Also, Nigel, the problems of adulteration and unknown potency also exist for any other illegal drug, yes they make heroin worse than it would be if it was not a street drug, but they also make coke and meth worse than they would be if they were not street drugs and as far as physical harm goes they are worse to begin with.

That graph rated addiction and physical harm on two different axes... that's the point of using a plot like that. It didn't "conflate" anything. The fact that the physical harm is a side effect of addiction and not a direct effect of the drug doesn't negate it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Have you ever seen anyone in withdrawal from heroin addiction? Have you ever heard of someone having to go to the hospital to have their bowel impaction removed because they've become so constipated from heroin that they have ten pounds of rock-hard shit in their colon and can't eat and have lost 50 lbs? Here, read this: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/513921-heroin-constipation

Heroin is a horrible fucking bitch. People can use it for a lifetime and be reasonably kind of OK (most of them aren't) but from everything I've seen I have to agree that in terms of both physical and social harm (losing jobs, relationships, etc) it deserves a pretty high rating.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

In the regular world, down here on the ground, which kind of dead is worse?

[Pergamos]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

In the regular world, down here on the ground, which kind of dead is worse?

So why have two axes on the graph and not just one? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

In the regular world, down here on the ground, which kind of dead is worse?

So why have two axes on the graph and not just one?

Come on, man...It was a simple question.

[Pergamos]

Hey guess what, guys? Under perfectly controlled ideal conditions, drugs are pretty safe!

Not what I was saying.

Heroin gets given this boogeyman status because of it's incredible addictive potential, it's not factually accurate to assign it a higher physical harm potential than drugs like meth, or coke, which even when pure and of known dosage are still doing serious physical harm to the body.

In the regular world, down here on the ground, which kind of dead is worse?

So why have two axes on the graph and not just one?

Come on, man...It was a simple question.

Yep, and a rhetorical one.  Dead is dead, and it sucks, and heroin will get you there.