Should kids have smartphones?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Because it was, you know, a direct quote.

Alrighty, sorry. For some reason it didn't even occur to me.

The general point stands though (certainly did with my mum) - using disappointment (genuine as well as pretend) as means of control can do terrible damage to an emerging person. I think. Actually, I am pretty certain.

Perhaps you are thinking more of shame?

I dunno, telling my kids I'm disappointed but still love them and will help them fix their mistakes seems pretty effective.

Of course, I also use disappointment sparingly, for choices like lying to me about doing their homework, or shoving dirty dishes under their beds. I don't really have a whole lot to be disappointed in at this point though. Foster girl has given me a couple of really good reasons, and in both of those cases, my disappointment was all it took.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

To put things in perspective, at age 17 (when its legal to learn to drive in the UK), I was backpacking in Peru.  Admittedly, I'm likely an outlier.  But some kids invariably will be.

The concept of raising kids to be able to function independently seems sadly to be on the decline. I see parents who either detach and leave their kids adrift to figure everything out on their own, or try to take an authoritative tack and attempt to control their child, which leads either to subservient and endlessly dependent young adults, or to power struggles, backlash, and estrangement. The parents who take the middle road and provide guidance, advice, respect, security, attachment, and  trust, the parents who are authoritative without being authoritarian, are the ones who end up with the seemingly-remarkable in our times independent young adults who are actually functional and can make adult decisions and do adult things on their own.

Authoritarian parenting sucks anyway because the parent isn't modeling anything like respect or boundaries. I know some kids who will mindlessly destroy anything, of anyone's, for seemingly no reason, the minute nobody's looking. But I think the reason is their mom: "If your room isn't picked up in five minutes, all these toys are going IN THE TRASH". And she does it, and pats herself on the back for taking a hard line "parenting".

That's exactly it. You have to model respect if you want kids to LEARN respect. I am having a bit of a power struggle with surprise daughter's older brother over that right now. He has Ideas about how to raise kids, but they're based on control and punishment. Also he's a child himself, and one who was raised by completely incompetent parents. His ideas are so wrongheaded it's laughable.

[EmmaE]

To put things in perspective, at age 17 (when its legal to learn to drive in the UK), I was backpacking in Peru.  Admittedly, I'm likely an outlier.  But some kids invariably will be.

The concept of raising kids to be able to function independently seems sadly to be on the decline. I see parents who either detach and leave their kids adrift to figure everything out on their own, or try to take an authoritative tack and attempt to control their child, which leads either to subservient and endlessly dependent young adults, or to power struggles, backlash, and estrangement. The parents who take the middle road and provide guidance, advice, respect, security, attachment, and  trust, the parents who are authoritative without being authoritarian, are the ones who end up with the seemingly-remarkable in our times independent young adults who are actually functional and can make adult decisions and do adult things on their own.

Authoritarian parenting sucks anyway because the parent isn't modeling anything like respect or boundaries. I know some kids who will mindlessly destroy anything, of anyone's, for seemingly no reason, the minute nobody's looking. But I think the reason is their mom: "If your room isn't picked up in five minutes, all these toys are going IN THE TRASH". And she does it, and pats herself on the back for taking a hard line "parenting".

That's exactly it. You have to model respect if you want kids to LEARN respect. I am having a bit of a power struggle with surprise daughter's older brother over that right now. He has Ideas about how to raise kids, but they're based on control and punishment. Also he's a child himself, and one who was raised by completely incompetent parents. His ideas are so wrongheaded it's laughable.

You hit the nail on the head, there. My mother was very firmly in the "do as I say right now or else I'll beat the shit out of you" camp, and while it was "effective" then, our relationship is extremely strained now - almost to the point that I want nothing to do with her. In a household with no respect, kids often learn not to respect themselves, which is so incredibly shitty.

OT: I don't think there's anything wrong with kids having smartphones, really. It's a hell of a better option than searching around for a (now practically non-existent) payphone and hoping you have enough loose change to call your parents to let them know you're not dead. I understand the potential problems with social interactivity and distracted behaviour, but I would imagine that's an opportunity to teach your children how/when to properly use the phone, and when not to (in school, in work, etc).

[Salty]

Right this moment I'm sitting in a cafe/grocery store. It's filled with young people, 15? Around there. Most of them have phones out at varying intervals. Some of them have them out constantly.

And they're all acting like the highly social, chemical explosions that they are. They chattee, they laugh, they share, they take video and pictures just for the hell of it. They listen to music and share that too. They talk and talk and talk. One of them, sitting in a group of three, just called another one to see if they wanted to hang out.

So, you know, FUCK LOUIS CK.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

A lot of older people seem to have a really hard time with anything that's new, I think because being against it is easier than figuring out how to deal with it. Also, older people seem to have a much more difficult time incorporating new concepts and technologies into their lives appropriately and with moderation, so I think they assume that kids who were raised with these concepts and technologies have the same troubles they do.

[Dildo Argentino]

Because it was, you know, a direct quote.

Alrighty, sorry. For some reason it didn't even occur to me.

The general point stands though (certainly did with my mum) - using disappointment (genuine as well as pretend) as means of control can do terrible damage to an emerging person. I think. Actually, I am pretty certain.

Perhaps you are thinking more of shame?

I dunno, telling my kids I'm disappointed but still love them and will help them fix their mistakes seems pretty effective.

Of course, I also use disappointment sparingly, for choices like lying to me about doing their homework, or shoving dirty dishes under their beds. I don't really have a whole lot to be disappointed in at this point though. Foster girl has given me a couple of really good reasons, and in both of those cases, my disappointment was all it took.

Shaming, too. But in general, I think I'm thinking of emotional blackmail. "You've made mummy really sad!" Well, mummy, you are an adult, you should have robust emotional self-regulation in place, it's alright if you don't (granny and gramps weren't really on top of things when you were a kid, must have sucked), but if you make it look like it's my fault, there's a good chance I'm just going to end up maladjusted like you. And if you start early (before I learn to speak), there's also a good chance I'll have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck is wrong with me.

[Cain]

-

[Golden Applesauce]

I have a couple of friends whose parents are only ever disappointed in them, and their self esteem and functioning adult skills are all shot to hell. It's pretty crushing to realize that your parents don't love you, have never loved you, that there is nothing you can do as their child that will make them love you or even satisfy them, and that even though they understand all this intellectually they still crave parental love. Obviously, I'm talking about child abuse here and not anything approaching parenting. Having "disappointed" be the most upset a parent gets is completely different than a parent whose default is disappointed and regularly gets more angry than that.

Incidentally, the most abused friend (adult) does have an iPhone. Her abusive, violent parents regularly try to call her and guilt her into interacting with them. She gets a PTSD response every time that happens. iOS doesn't expose the ability to block specific numbers as a setting; you need to root your phone to install a call-blocker app. (Android allows setting blocked numbers out of the box.)

Phone software to track children makes me nervous. If a child doesn't trust their parents to know where they are, there's a nonzero chance that the child is right and their parents are untrustworthy. Providing surveillance tech to random parents on the basis that parents are responsible people and children are always at fault is the same logic that lets you sell surveillance tech to dictators because heads of state are responsible and the average citizen is basically a criminal.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Because it was, you know, a direct quote.

Alrighty, sorry. For some reason it didn't even occur to me.

The general point stands though (certainly did with my mum) - using disappointment (genuine as well as pretend) as means of control can do terrible damage to an emerging person. I think. Actually, I am pretty certain.

Perhaps you are thinking more of shame?

I dunno, telling my kids I'm disappointed but still love them and will help them fix their mistakes seems pretty effective.

Of course, I also use disappointment sparingly, for choices like lying to me about doing their homework, or shoving dirty dishes under their beds. I don't really have a whole lot to be disappointed in at this point though. Foster girl has given me a couple of really good reasons, and in both of those cases, my disappointment was all it took.

Shaming, too. But in general, I think I'm thinking of emotional blackmail. "You've made mummy really sad!" Well, mummy, you are an adult, you should have robust emotional self-regulation in place, it's alright if you don't (granny and gramps weren't really on top of things when you were a kid, must have sucked), but if you make it look like it's my fault, there's a good chance I'm just going to end up maladjusted like you. And if you start early (before I learn to speak), there's also a good chance I'll have a really hard time figuring out what the fuck is wrong with me.

Oh yeah, that's a whole different thing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have a couple of friends whose parents are only ever disappointed in them, and their self esteem and functioning adult skills are all shot to hell. It's pretty crushing to realize that your parents don't love you, have never loved you, that there is nothing you can do as their child that will make them love you or even satisfy them, and that even though they understand all this intellectually they still crave parental love. Obviously, I'm talking about child abuse here and not anything approaching parenting. Having "disappointed" be the most upset a parent gets is completely different than a parent whose default is disappointed and regularly gets more angry than that.

Incidentally, the most abused friend (adult) does have an iPhone. Her abusive, violent parents regularly try to call her and guilt her into interacting with them. She gets a PTSD response every time that happens. iOS doesn't expose the ability to block specific numbers as a setting; you need to root your phone to install a call-blocker app. (Android allows setting blocked numbers out of the box.)

Phone software to track children makes me nervous. If a child doesn't trust their parents to know where they are, there's a nonzero chance that the child is right and their parents are untrustworthy. Providing surveillance tech to random parents on the basis that parents are responsible people and children are always at fault is the same logic that lets you sell surveillance tech to dictators because heads of state are responsible and the average citizen is basically a criminal.

Children are basically treated like possessions under the law.

[AFK]

Bad idea.  It is another avenue for unsupervised and unmonitored access to the internet.  Especially given all of the Agrippa's that use the internet.

ROCKS AND BROKEN GLASS.  THAT'S ALL THEY NEED.

No, but they also don't need to be easier targets for the pedophiles that trawl the internet.  Giving a kid a smartphone does that, among other issues.  I'm not talking about your 17 and 18 year olds, certainly whn a kid gets to an age where they are driving and getting a job, I think there is certainly merit.  But your younger teens and tweens, it seems a little sketchy to me.  Get them just a plain ole cellphone without access to the net so they can still make a call in emergencies, but they don't, IMO, need smartphones.

Wouldnt telling kids to not talk to pedos be more effective?

You know what's effective?  When a new kid joins the group, he or she is met by 10-20 of the kids, all of whom have phones.

Nothing is more sad then seeing a bunch of kids in the same room talking to each other through screens instead of face to face.  I'd rather my kid is part of a group where phones are put away and they partake in the fine art of playing games.  Nonsense as Savation.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Bad idea.  It is another avenue for unsupervised and unmonitored access to the internet.  Especially given all of the Agrippa's that use the internet.

ROCKS AND BROKEN GLASS.  THAT'S ALL THEY NEED.

No, but they also don't need to be easier targets for the pedophiles that trawl the internet.  Giving a kid a smartphone does that, among other issues.  I'm not talking about your 17 and 18 year olds, certainly whn a kid gets to an age where they are driving and getting a job, I think there is certainly merit.  But your younger teens and tweens, it seems a little sketchy to me.  Get them just a plain ole cellphone without access to the net so they can still make a call in emergencies, but they don't, IMO, need smartphones.

Wouldnt telling kids to not talk to pedos be more effective?

You know what's effective?  When a new kid joins the group, he or she is met by 10-20 of the kids, all of whom have phones.

Nothing is more sad then seeing a bunch of kids in the same room talking to each other through screens instead of face to face.  I'd rather my kid is part of a group where phones are put away and they partake in the fine art of playing games.  Nonsense as Savation.

Nothing is more sad than seeing a bunch of kids writing on paper, instead of inscribing things on clay tablets, in proper cuneaform.

[AFK]

You are missing the point.  Remember all of that stuff we wrote about American Idol and TeeVee?  People noy giving a fuck because they are firmly latched to the teat of brainless entertainment?

So you now want to encourage that?

[Don Coyote]

Bad idea.  It is another avenue for unsupervised and unmonitored access to the internet.  Especially given all of the Agrippa's that use the internet.

ROCKS AND BROKEN GLASS.  THAT'S ALL THEY NEED.

No, but they also don't need to be easier targets for the pedophiles that trawl the internet.  Giving a kid a smartphone does that, among other issues.  I'm not talking about your 17 and 18 year olds, certainly whn a kid gets to an age where they are driving and getting a job, I think there is certainly merit.  But your younger teens and tweens, it seems a little sketchy to me.  Get them just a plain ole cellphone without access to the net so they can still make a call in emergencies, but they don't, IMO, need smartphones.

Wouldnt telling kids to not talk to pedos be more effective?

You know what's effective?  When a new kid joins the group, he or she is met by 10-20 of the kids, all of whom have phones.

Nothing is more sad then seeing a bunch of kids in the same room talking to each other through screens instead of face to face.  I'd rather my kid is part of a group where phones are put away and they partake in the fine art of playing games.  Nonsense as Savation.

Nothing is more sad than seeing a bunch of kids writing on paper, instead of inscribing things on clay tablets, in proper cuneaform.

Nothing is more sad that seeing a bunch of kids inscribing things on clay tablets instead of painting on walls with shit, berries and blood.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You are missing the point.  Remember all of that stuff we wrote about American Idol and TeeVee?  People noy giving a fuck because they are firmly latched to the teat of brainless entertainment?

So you now want to encourage that?

You are confusing the medium with the message.

They are merely doing a more efficient version of what you and I are doing right now.