New Privilege Topic

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, "being a good drummer" isn't, but "growing up in an environment that provided the time and resources for learning to play the drums" is, yeah?

Yes, exactly. Talent isn't privilege because it has to be developed, but having the resources given to you to be able to develop that talent is privilege.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Shit, a whole bunch of people posted while I was doing this. Hitting post anyway.

Some of these posts are including things that are making me question where the line is drawn for "privilege" and just "shit that's going awesome for me." Is having a job really a privilege? Is "not being homeless" one?

I think roger defined it well before with (and I am paraphrasing) "A privilege is something that can be withdrawn" Is a job a right, is a home a right? They should be be but in reality it doesn't appear that way.

That doesn't match up with the things we've been talking about, though. You can't withdraw "white." I've been operating with "privilege is a thing you are born with or is otherwise given to you through no action of your own that fairly or unfairly gives you an advantage in life."

I think it all falls under the "otherwise given" category. White in and of itself doesn't offer many advantages other then camouflage on snowy hills. It's the predisposition that people have to treat you differently because you are white that gives the advantage and that mindset can be withdrawn. Or maybe I misunderstood the Right V's Privilege.

I have a right to find a job and I have the privilege of being in a Job. The first can't be taken away (excluding prison scenarios and such), the second can.

You have to take an action to get a job (except in cases of extreme nepotism), which is why I wouldn't put it there, but shit like "extremely well connected family" or "access to college funds" would be a privilege. And you're right that skin color in and of itself grants no particular advantage, but it would be more accurately stated as "white in a society that gives advantages to white people," "heterosexual in a society that gives advantages to heterosexual people," etc. It's not a thing I can give away, it's not a thing I earned or worked for, and while I can contribute towards social changes I can't really control the fact that they exist.

Sorry if this was covered in an earlier thread, but I was thinking about it earlier and just want it down. There was some talk years ago about "crusties" or whatever the fuck the term is for "kids born into privilege that voluntarily live like vagrants," and there was a lot of shitting on them and I was having trouble with it because I could in some way identify with the drive to do that and I couldn't really articulate it. It comes down to not wanting to be in debt. Nobody, fucking nobody ever, wants to be in debt. It sucks. When people are made aware of the fact that the world gave them things, things that not everyone else had access to, that information can be interpreted as "you are in debt to the world for the privileges you were granted." Fleeing that debt, throwing away advantages that you had no part in attaining, is a juvenile response, but one that makes a certain amount of sense. Talking about privilege makes people uncomfortable, because some of them will come to the conclusion that the world expects something back for what they were given. That's when you get people yelling about how "NO ONE EVER GAVE ME A LEG UP" "I'M A SELF-MADE MAN" and on, and on. What they're saying is "DON'T PUT ME IN DEBT TO ANYTHING."

[Faust]

That brings me back to my college grant. Having that does make me feel indebted to society. Practically I'm not. I could just as easily forget about it now. And if it had been a college loan like other countries have I most certainly wouldn't consider wanting to give anything back to anyone else because that would have felt like a noose around my neck.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Shit, a whole bunch of people posted while I was doing this. Hitting post anyway.

Some of these posts are including things that are making me question where the line is drawn for "privilege" and just "shit that's going awesome for me." Is having a job really a privilege? Is "not being homeless" one?

I think roger defined it well before with (and I am paraphrasing) "A privilege is something that can be withdrawn" Is a job a right, is a home a right? They should be be but in reality it doesn't appear that way.

That doesn't match up with the things we've been talking about, though. You can't withdraw "white." I've been operating with "privilege is a thing you are born with or is otherwise given to you through no action of your own that fairly or unfairly gives you an advantage in life."

I think it all falls under the "otherwise given" category. White in and of itself doesn't offer many advantages other then camouflage on snowy hills. It's the predisposition that people have to treat you differently because you are white that gives the advantage and that mindset can be withdrawn. Or maybe I misunderstood the Right V's Privilege.

I have a right to find a job and I have the privilege of being in a Job. The first can't be taken away (excluding prison scenarios and such), the second can.

You have to take an action to get a job (except in cases of extreme nepotism), which is why I wouldn't put it there, but shit like "extremely well connected family" or "access to college funds" would be a privilege. And you're right that skin color in and of itself grants no particular advantage, but it would be more accurately stated as "white in a society that gives advantages to white people," "heterosexual in a society that gives advantages to heterosexual people," etc. It's not a thing I can give away, it's not a thing I earned or worked for, and while I can contribute towards social changes I can't really control the fact that they exist.

Sorry if this was covered in an earlier thread, but I was thinking about it earlier and just want it down. There was some talk years ago about "crusties" or whatever the fuck the term is for "kids born into privilege that voluntarily live like vagrants," and there was a lot of shitting on them and I was having trouble with it because I could in some way identify with the drive to do that and I couldn't really articulate it. It comes down to not wanting to be in debt. Nobody, fucking nobody ever, wants to be in debt. It sucks. When people are made aware of the fact that the world gave them things, things that not everyone else had access to, that information can be interpreted as "you are in debt to the world for the privileges you were granted." Fleeing that debt, throwing away advantages that you had no part in attaining, is a juvenile response, but one that makes a certain amount of sense. Talking about privilege makes people uncomfortable, because some of them will come to the conclusion that the world expects something back for what they were given. That's when you get people yelling about how "NO ONE EVER GAVE ME A LEG UP" "I'M A SELF-MADE MAN" and on, and on. What they're saying is "DON'T PUT ME IN DEBT TO ANYTHING."

I can see that. I think that one of the things that causes that reaction to invoke such a visceral negative response is because, if you lack privilege, it feels like sort of a slap in the face for someone who has it to not do something productive with it. Like my ex, who has inherited (and promptly squandered) over $200,000; almost everyone's response is a disbelieving "What I could have done with $200,000..."

It could have made a huge, huge difference in almost anyone else's quality of life. He essentially threw it away.

People who try to eschew their privileges still have them, and they still benefit from them; no one who is truly poor would strive to live on the edge of subsistence, because they have no safety net. So these crusty types, they still incur that debt, and they also incur an additional debt, that of insulting the have-nots by squandering their privileges.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

You're 100% right, trying to live like you don't have those advantages just makes you look like a dick. It was one of those things where I had a feel and needed to unpack it to see what was going on in there. There are responsible ways to "pay back" some of that debt, but ultimately it's not something that can be "paid off" until society on a whole stops going "oh, you nice white skinned kids don't need to go to jail for that, have a job instead." I think there are a lot of people out there who are just not capable of being as insanely awesome as Jane Elliot about recognizing privilege and working to end injustice without turning into a whining, cookie-seeking bastard in the process.

Actually, that's probably where the cookie-seeking stuff comes in, too. HEY, I DIDN'T CROSS THE STREET TO AVOID YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE BLACK, PLEASE TELL ME I NO LONGER HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO RACISM! I WANT TO GET RID OF THIS BAD FEELING.

[Salty]

**
-American citizenship, but German born-Yugoslavian citizenship originally. Dodged a bullet there! Probably literally!

-White male
-Able bodied and mostly sound, capable, adaptable mind.
(Excepting eyesight - general poor vision, amblyolpia.)
-Very clear, soft skin, with zero effort.
-My face has angles where people commonly appreciate angles.
-Generally, my appearance is that of an doe-eyed, harmless All-American Winner/Good Ol Boy. At first, anyway.
-Very skinny with a metabolism dialed permanently at 11.
-Had one parent who, despite all else, loved and cared about me when I needed it, most of the time.
-Solid immune system which improves mightily with regular, intense exercise.

-I have a knack for language, a certain control over words that sometimes gives me an edge or a means of motivating, coaxing, or flat out manipulating people into certain actions or frames of mind. This is more of an IRL skill than an online one. Something about glands and the meaty-ness of the ear/brain.

-Educated twice in Germany
(4th Grade and 9th Grade)

-Grew up in a city that weathers financial crisis well, and has a higher than average wage rate than the continental US. Even now, as this buffer fades thousands come here for work. Had my mother been working in a Burger King in, say, Southern California or who knows where else... Or a place with a much higher rate of black people than Alaska...

I know many otherwise all right people who have simply not seen a lot of black people, and they're uncomfortable when they do. From talking with them it would seem they lack the capacity to allow this truth, that black people exist and are not necessarily like they are on the TEEVEE. It's different from racism I've witnessed in Arkansas, where it's just so assumed that black people are shit. Here it's the fear that's based in isolation and ignorance.

-Every year for no good reason my local government gives me something close to $1000. They also give it to any children I care to have. I pay no local taxes. The oil industry has enabled a certain minimum quality of life throughout my state, also it provided much of the infrastructure that allows me easy access to some of the most beautiful and isolated spots in the world.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

White, middle class, born with mechanical aptitude and a talent for bullshitting.  Parents still together, reasonably happy childhood.  CIS/straight.  Both kids born with all their parts, and in the right place.  "One of the boys", in the eyes of management (even if its the one boy that nobody likes to talk about too much).  Decent education.  Some talent writing.

[Richter]

A few people have touched on this - but I'm struck by the rarity of the combination of my being able to read (and freely taught as a matter of participating in my given society), and having the capacity and leisure time to casually use the internet.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Unearned benefits:
-White
-Male, cisgendered, functionally heterosexual
-American born, with jus sanguinis dual citizenship with European country
-Both nations have English as their primary language, therefore, I do too.
-Irish ethnicity in Boston
-Born working class rather than in poverty
-Above average intelligence
-light colored, apparently striking eyes.
-naturally straight teeth (to the point where new dentists comment on them) that are all still there despite abuse and neglect.
-Fairly large family earlier in life that I could fall back on for support when needed.
-Born and raised in an average sized American city known for its universities and top-notch medical facilities.

Disadvantages:
-mental illness and substance abuse are commonplace in my family. Both of my biological parents have basically lost the plot at this point.
-Premature baldness
-genetic risks for cancer and heart disease may cause financial hardships or death in late middle age or early elderhood
-Prone to depression

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

white, no physical disabilities, cis, can pass as straight, literate, not butt ugly by western beauty standards, natural aptitude towards being inquisitive and learning new things, marked out as gifted at a young age at school. Dual citizenship with Ireland if I want it. Some savings of more than £1000 (not a lot but it makes a hell of a difference in a bad situation). Good eyesight.

disadvantages- raised in poverty, mental health issues relating to a highly stigmatised MH condition (psychosis),  raised in an abusive environment, family too poor for education past 18 (but the internet has helped with the curiosity above mentioned) family history of psychotic illness, still poor despite the Emergency Fund. Possibly poorly socialised due to having to act as my mothers child care provider from 14. Dyslexia. large to the point of only being able to afford 4 bras in the boob department. Overweight (but not obese). Will probably never own property in the house sense in my lifetime. Out of work due to illness.

I notice also no-one has listed their employment status....

[EK WAFFLR]

I notice also no-one has listed their employment status....

I live comfortably even without a job.

[Signora Pæsior]

I notice also no-one has listed their employment status....

I did, Faust did, Hoopla did, RWHN and Pæs both mentioned their salary which is along the same lines, Waffles made note of being able to live comfortably without having a job, and Roger mentioned being considered "one of the boys" by management.

I think Nigel made some good points a page or so back about whether having a job is a privilege in and of itself, as opposed to some of our innate privileges making it easier for us to secure those jobs.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Ok. my bad. Full of flu fail.

[Signora Pæsior]

Ok. my bad. Full of flu fail.

Ugh, me too. WHOO SEXY HONEYMOON, SPENT IT ALL IN BED SO FAR. Except not quite the way I was envisaging.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Yea it's the result of going to a party in october with uni students. YAY FRESHERS FLU! i got the sick, but not the education damnit.