Feminists are Scary.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

In other circles, he could become "that sexist who says 'women should be equal BUT'" and the conversation is over...

And these are the circles that make everything WORSE while they congratulate themselves on how militant they are.

They're in an interesting position which I don't know how to approach. I like to be conscious of how it looks to a feminist community to have a dude come in and tell them what-for and why they're DOING IT WRONG. Wish me luck not tripping over any established tropes with THAT approach. They're also (quite understandably, IMO) reacting and perceiving themselves to be reacting to a system that attacked them first.

For me, it's a matter of balancing that understanding with an interest in helping to communicate the pretty important message they've got.

I don't even try.  I am convinced that most, if not all, of them are out to have the biggest, smelliest farts under the communal blanket, and they don't give a fuck what it does to the rest of the "community".  It's not about feminism or anything else, other than LOOK AT MEEEEEEEE!

So to hell with them.  As far as I'm concerned, their pretty important message is "them"...and if there's more to it, it DOESN'T MATTER, because they are UNABLE AND/OR UNWILLING TO COMMUNICATE with people who aren't already converted.

 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And if they are "just reacting to a system that attacked them first", well, FUCK THEM.  Because I didn't attack them, my father certainly didn't attack them, and if they REALLY think that ALL men attacked them, then they aren't fucking up to the task at hand.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
- Al Capone

[LMNO]

Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.

Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative.  I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational.  But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc because of their insane and outrageous opinions.

They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.

Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain.  It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.

I agree with what Cain said Cain said.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thank your daughter for me.  She's smarter than my old ass, and managed to word in one phrase what I've been trying to say since 2011.

She has a remarkable way of distilling fairly complex concepts down to a few simple words that make perfect sense.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.

Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative.  I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational.  But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc because of their insane and outrageous opinions.

They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.

Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain.  It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.

The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.

I actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.

I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones.  And I don't think they're joking. 

I actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.

That's a damn good idea.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.

I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones.  And I don't think they're joking. 

I actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.

That's a damn good idea.

It's a political school of thought that has a 100+ year history, so, if you aren't willing to actually read about shit rather than rely on stereotypes then it's like a creationist trying to argue with an evolutionary biologist. The creationist is going to look like an eejit.  You can't really engage with a largely academic topic without going through some basics. If people aren't willing to catch up to speed and actually come to me on a level closer to my understanding rather than trotting out the hairy lesbian manhater trope (I am hairy, lesbianism is not a bad thing and I only hate on douchebags) then they are wasting my precious time and are not really worth the effort. Telling them this is incredibly effective when dealing with SGITRS.

Feminism doesn't need a rebrand, it needs people to actually know what the political thought is rather than relying on the Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaughs of this world.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.

I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones.  And I don't think they're joking. 

I actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.

That's a damn good idea.

It's a political school of thought that has a 100+ year history, so, if you aren't willing to actually read about shit rather than rely on stereotypes then it's like a creationist trying to argue with an evolutionary biologist. The creationist is going to look like an eejit.  You can't really engage with a largely academic topic without going through some basics. If people aren't willing to catch up to speed and actually come to me on a level closer to my understanding rather than trotting out the hairy lesbian manhater trope (I am hairy, lesbianism is not a bad thing and I only hate on douchebags) then they are wasting my precious time and are not really worth the effort. Telling them this is incredibly effective when dealing with SGITRS.

Feminism doesn't need a rebrand, it needs people to actually know what the political thought is rather than relying on the Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaughs of this world.

Needs to be reclaimed, IMO.

[Pæs]

Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc

Um, that's a monologue, not a discussion.  But still.

Anyway, the thing is, Bearman walked in here with a view on feminism that has been manufactured by reactionaries and furthered by people who are more interested in being militant than they are in the thing they are militant about.

One simple question later, he seems to have a slightly different view.

When someone asks about feminism, it is not required to start with Susan B Anthony.  When someone asks "what the hell is CIS?", it is not required to tell them what a shitbag they are for being CIS (which we have seen, here at this very forum). 

It all comes down to "what kind of world do you want?"

If you want a world with a little justice in it, you have to communicate the ideas of justice.  You don't do that with #fuckcismales or some putrid hipster ranting about why it's okay to bray hatred at people he doesn't even know.  That is ANTI-COMMUNICATION.  So is that stupid fucking "Fuck you for not including me" mockery "argument", so is that "CIS Man-tears" shit, and so is fucking hollering at people for asking a question...And most CERTAINLY is telling people with no education on the subject that they're "part of the problem".

You know what that shit is?  That's taking a cheap fucking shot at someone who wants to help, to score a few points under the fart blanket.  It makes the world worse. 

And the world's bad enough already.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, yeah, still carrying a little baggage from 2012, here.  The whole death threats thing talked about in that article sort of brought it all back.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc

YES!

Seriously, between 2 people who actually like and respect each other from a privilege vs non-privileged status, shit like this conversation between Gabe and Sophie are the  (best possible outcome) way things go. there is something about Twitter that is NOT GOOD for a proper discussion and unpacking of complex concepts of gender, or, well anything complex.  Gabe is a pretty good example of a privileged person who kneejerks first and thinks later if at all (ref Dickwolves, google that). Also I guess in a lot of online spaces associated with SJ that the ones that didn't get handed life on easy mode are frustrated and are basically getting their rant on. (the Tumblr stuff is very much so this from what I see).It's like when black women give white middle class feminists a hard time for racefails. I've seen it, and it got real ugly just last week in fact (long and short of it, the white women were not listening,and even sent messages harassing WOC via PM, it was not pretty and the suggestion that "we just didn't talk about racism" came up waaay too often).

It's like when the Really Real Discordians shit on our collective porch, we tend to give them short shrift. When the same shit is repeated and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.

Which, now that I think about it, isn't communication either.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I think in a lot of cases that the internets are kind of hostile to those who are openly women/QUILTBAG/POC or other than the Default Narrative of Straight White Cis Dude and a lot of the conversations I have had online are far, far different in tone to the ones I have had IRL.

Some of that hostility Bear and Roger have mentioned from SJ folks is a defense mechanism. There was a campaign about having a woman on a banknote (other than Liz) in the UK and the organiser got rape threats. In the case of the Tropes Vs Women in gaming kickstarter, Anita Sarkeesian got a whole out there raft of bullshit. Unfortunately, not enough dudes call out their bros on their shit, so they have been given a free pass (that the douchenozzles think, anyhoo) to go around threatening people. Reasonable didn't work with the facebook policies condoning sexual assault, or Anita Sarkeesian, or the banknote thing, or the thing before that, and that (it gets to be long if you have been in the news loop for more than 6 months on the social justice internets) and all these things are fresh in the minds of the communities who are maybe coming across as radical for the sake of it. Frustration can turn the previously reasonable into ARGH FUCK GET OFF MY LAWN.

it can be fucking hostile out there if you stick your head above the parapet and  My Steam account and trolling/anti-fascism accounts are gender neutral as I really don't want to deal with that shit.

and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.

Which, now that I think about it, isn't communication either.

ok, I was using shorthand in that particular statement. but having to cover the same ground over and over with the misconceptions is for me, energy that'd be better spent (for my own sanity and health) asking people to educate themselves and ask me about finer points that need clarifying rather than feeling like I'm banging my head against the same bullshit over and over and over again.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

ok, I was using shorthand in that particular statement. but having to cover the same ground over and over with the misconceptions is for me, energy that'd be better spent (for my own sanity and health) asking people to educate themselves and ask me about finer points that need clarifying rather than feeling like I'm banging my head against the same bullshit over and over and over again.

I have come up with a couple of questions that I generally ask, to illustrate things.  Saves on long explanations that nobody listens to anyway.

1.  If two people have the same skill set and experience, should they be paid the same for the same job?

2.  Is there any time a person should be denied their full rights under law without trial?

If the answers are

1.  Yes

2.  No

They my answer is "congratulations, you're a feminist".  Leaves them having the argument in THEIR head, where YOU don't have to listen.