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Fat, fat, fat

Started by Salty, March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM

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Salty

Where do these assumptions about fat content in the body come from?

Where do the assumptions about how well any one person can lose weight and keep it off through known, effective diet methods come from?

How many people who choose to diet to do by what some may see as the correct way VS harmful ways that most often result in not only regaining of the weight, but even more weight then they had before?

By what standard is an amount of fat, visibly noticeable, considered healthy or unhealthy?

When you say "health" just what exactly do you mean? Can you offer a concise, broadly applicable definition of health? Generally? In this specific context?

We can safely say that BMI is a very, very poor indicator of what amounts to "healthy" weight.

Do you know for certain, by looking at someone, that their fat is causing them health problems? Can you count their cholesterol levels by seeing how far their belly hangs over their belt?

What do you suppose is a more serious problem:

Accepting fat people's bodies for what they are at that precise moment as it is the only body they have at that same moment, and allowing them to believe that they will not be judged harshly for it, thus, supposedly, leading them to get fatter and fatter.

OR

The already existing massive amounts of pressure our society imposes on people, most especially women, to possess a specific body type, that MOST DEFINITELY leads to eating disorders, depression, suicidal thoughts, and an altogether vicious cycle that makes people feel the kind of shame that keeps them away from exercise because they barely want to be seen out of the house, let alone in the gym.

Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.

What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.

I ask again:

How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?

Yeah, exercise is good for you. Yeah, eating certain foods over others is good for you.

No, none of you here are qualified in any way to make judgements on people about their state of health based off external observations. No one is. Blood work, that's what tells you about what's ticking in the human body. When you can afford it. Not big bellies, not saddle-bags, not love-handles.

Nor are any of you qualified to determine whether someone is able to exercise at all. Not everyone can.

It is often said that there are only few instances when someone can associate their weight with glandular problems or the like. When is it okay apply this acceptance? When they tell you about their thyroid disorder? Just what business is it of anyone's?

Here's the deal:

YOU can deal with YOUR weight, and your own shame, however the hell you want.

You can can avoid dating people who don't fit a body type you are attracted to.

And hell, you can even make broad, sweeping generalizations about a large group of human beings whose physiology you can only make assumptions about. I am definitely not going to try to stop you.

I just have to wonder: why? Why do you even care?

Furthermore, what makes you care more about the dangerous obesity epidemic than the shame that such people must endure?

I don't have much of any kind of medical training. But I do deal with the human body, and I will say this with some great deal of certainty:

Your mind spends a great deal of time in your body, if only in a secondary manner. And when you want to permanently undo something in the body the VERY WORST thing you can do is try to force it.

When you force the body to do something it reacts in a protective and defensive manner.

When you allow the body to be as it is, without trying to change it, without telling it that it is BEING WRONG, it feels safe and secure enough to change.

I think people are like that to.

I think if there is any one thing that causes people to fluctuate wildly in their weight is the pressure they feel. Fat people are told every single day that they aren't worth love, or kindness, or even life itself, because of they way their body is shaped at that exact moment.

They are told this by their family, by every single media outlet, by their doctors.

I may be repeating myself at this point, but I am wholly convinced that the pressure and shame people experiences is way, way, way more harmful than the food you THINK they are eating or the lifestyle you THINK they are maintaining.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

The thing of it is, you don't know how anyone is predisposed to burn a given amount of calories.

I cannot find the damned link, but there was a study recently done on mice that heavily suggested that mice do not burn the same amount of calories at the same rate given the same level of physical exercise.

So, IF that can be applied to human beings, which is an assumption, but not an unfair one, IMO, then what advice would you give to the millions people out there constantly worrying about the fat on their bodies? With such a potential for variance of metabolic rate in any given human how do you know their fat is cause by their activity level and caloric intake just by looking at them?
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Faust

#3
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.

What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.

I ask again:

How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?

I was comparing the proliferation of obesity to the proliferation of guns, it's dangerous and harmful.

I've no medical knowledge in the least, I can only comment on the statistics

In Ireland at the present time 39% of adults are overweight and 18% are obeses these figures are double what they were ten years ago. In ireland the leading cause of death is heart disease. There are many causes to it, alcoholism being a far more detrimental then obesity but the amount of complications associated with obesity is growing.

As to your second question because it is not the same thing you asked me the first time.
If I looked at a fat person I'm not going to make any assumptions on their health. However If I look at a room full of obese people, I can safely say that there are a number of people there not at their optimal body weight.

I'm not judging them, nor have I an interest in their personal appearance or health, they can be whatever they want to be. But I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to say they aren't an at risk group and I'm not going to say statistically some of them will go on to develop complications because of their lifestyle.

Sleepless nights at the chateau

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I don't think fat people should be shamed. Fat is not shameful. But I also am not in favor of celebrating fat, because fat is, whether you like this idea or not, strongly correlated with serious health problems and premature death. I don't want people I love to be fat, because I have seen people I cared about die from obesity-related disease.

You may condemn me for "judging" my daughter because I want her to consume less crap food and get more exercise. But fuck you, she doesn't eat well and she doesn't get enough exercise, and I'm her mother and I don't want her to end up diabetic like her father, hypertensive like her mother, or prematurely dead like her grandmother. Seriously, just fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Salty

Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 10:35:19 PM
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.

What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.

I ask again:

How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?

I was comparing the proliferation of obesity to the proliferation of guns, it's dangerous and harmful.

I've no medical knowledge in the least, I can only comment on the statistics

In Ireland at the present time 39% of adults are overweight and 18% are obeses these figures are double what they were ten years ago. In ireland the leading cause of death is heart disease. There are many causes to it, alcoholism being a far more detrimental then obesity but the amount of complications associated with obesity is growing.

As to your second question because it is not the same thing you asked me the first time.
If I looked at a fat person I'm not going to make any assumptions on their health. However If I look at a room full of obese people, I can safely say that there are a number of people there not at their optimal body weight.

I'm not judging them, nor have I an interest in their personal appearance or health, they can be whatever they want to be. But I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to say they aren't an at risk group and I'm not going to say statistically some of them will go on to develop complications because of their lifestyle.



Based on what? On this?

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks.html

QuoteAs your body mass index rises, so does your risk for coronary heart disease (CHD). CHD is a condition in which a waxy substance called plaque (plak) builds up inside the coronary arteries. These arteries supply oxygen-rich blood to your heart.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/WeightManagement/Obesity/Obesity-Information_UCM_307908_Article.jsp
QuotePeople with a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or higher are considered obese.

BMI is bullshit.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439&sc=fb&cc=fp

The definition of obesity is based off BMI and only BMI.

The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
I don't think fat people should be shamed. Fat is not shameful. But I also am not in favor of celebrating fat, because fat is, whether you like this idea or not, strongly correlated with serious health problems and premature death. I don't want people I love to be fat, because I have seen people I cared about die from obesity-related disease.

You may condemn me for "judging" my daughter because I want her to consume less crap food and get more exercise. But fuck you, she doesn't eat well and she doesn't get enough exercise, and I'm her mother and I don't want her to end up diabetic like her father, hypertensive like her mother, or prematurely dead like her grandmother. Seriously, just fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

Right, OK.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:33:37 PM
The thing of it is, you don't know how anyone is predisposed to burn a given amount of calories.

I cannot find the damned link, but there was a study recently done on mice that heavily suggested that mice do not burn the same amount of calories at the same rate given the same level of physical exercise.

So, IF that can be applied to human beings, which is an assumption, but not an unfair one, IMO, then what advice would you give to the millions people out there constantly worrying about the fat on their bodies? With such a potential for variance of metabolic rate in any given human how do you know their fat is cause by their activity level and caloric intake just by looking at them?

People don't all burn the same amount of calories for the same amount of exercise. Some people are always going to be predisposed to storing fat even if they eat very little. I don't know the technical details (it's not my bag) but I have a friend at UW who is doing research on a very little-known heritable factor that makes a huge difference in weight gain in mice.

It's not my place to tell anyone who isn't my kid to eat better and get more exercise. I don't know what's going on with them, it's none of my fucking business. But don't tell me it isn't my business to try to keep my kids healthy, and don't even start with the fantasy la-la-land dreampipe bullshit that obesity isn't strongly associated with a host of health problems.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Yeah, totally, Alty. My kid's health is none of my business, and I'm harming her by telling her she can't drink soda and needs to go for walks. Just go fuck yourself, asshole.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Faust

Nor am I saying that any one magic bullet is going to assist those that are overweight.

Dietary changes help for some and in the society I live in a culture where most of the food that is presented to us is fattening, or contains to much salt, or too much sugar.

For others exercise is all that is needed to improve their metabolic process. I know it doesn't make me lose weight, it makes me bulk up. I am also part of a culture that promotes a sedentary lifestyle.

For some they never vary in weight slim or heavy, it's just their natural weight, they are neither underweight or overweight even if at a glance people would assume so.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Salty

Actually no. Nigel, I did not say anything about you or your daughter. I would not presume to do so. If it came across that way, I apologize. Not my intention.

You know your own family history. I don't. Why would I claim to do so?

I am talking about people in general, not people of whom you do, in fact, have medical or historically based knowledge of as that is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY.

But, you know, thanks for immediately assuming I would do such a thing.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Like I don't struggle all the time with how to encourage healthier habits WITHOUT giving her more of a complex than she already has thanks to this fucked-up toxic society.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Salty

THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.

Did I say, Nigel, wake the fuck up and take better care of your kid?

Did I say, HEY ANYONE, YOU SHOULD JUST LET YOUR KIDS BE FAT?

When have I ever presumed to tell people how to raise their children?
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:48:21 PM
Actually no. Nigel, I did not say anything about you or your daughter. I would not presume to do so. If it came across that way, I apologize. Not my intention.

You know your own family history. I don't. Why would I claim to do so?

I am talking about people in general, not people of whom you do, in fact, have medical or historically based knowledge of as that is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY.

But, you know, thanks for immediately assuming I would do such a thing.

Well, you sure as well were talking to someone here in your fired-up preachy voice.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."