How is wu wei distinct from Dorito-eating, Nascar-watching apathy?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

From the Wikipedia entry on wu wei:

In the Tao te Ching, Laozi explains that beings (or phenomena) that are wholly in harmony with the Tao behave in a completely natural, uncontrived way. The goal of spiritual practice for the human being is, according to Laozi, the attainment of this purely natural way of behaving, as when the planets revolve around the sun. The planets effortlessly do this revolving without any sort of control, force, or attempt to revolve themselves, instead engaging in effortless and spontaneous movement.

Several chapters of the most important Taoist text, the Tao Te Ching, attributed to Laozi, allude to "diminishing doing" or "diminishing will" as the key aspect of the sage's success. Taoist philosophy recognizes that the Universe already works harmoniously according to its own ways; as a person exerts their will against or upon the world they disrupt the harmony that already exists. This is not to say that a person should not exert agency and will. Rather, it is how one acts in relation to the natural processes already extant. The how, the Tao of intention and motivation, that is key.

Related translation from the Tao Tê Ching by Priya Hemenway, Chapter II:

2
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

Isn't swilling beer, watching TV, buying useless crap at the mall, and so on, isn't that the most natural way to live in a consumer society? It's effortless, you just punch the clock, buy stuff and simply ignore moral issues that make you uncomfortable. Struggling for any sense of justice, engaging with difficult issues, hell, even doing vigorous exercise routines would seem to be a contrived, forced way of living.

Disrupting the status quo seems to be the least wu wei thing you can do. Going with the flow helps bankers solidify their power, it helps us mindlessly dump tons of garbage into the ocean, it helps police to get away with murder.... The more I think about it, the more the idea seems designed to keep plebeians from meddling in the affairs of the ruling class.

edit: typo

[Reginald Ret]

Sounds about right.

[LMNO]

It could be argued that a consumer society is itself against what Lao Tsu considered "nature".

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

It could be argued that a consumer society is itself against what Lao Tsu considered "nature".

I don't think China was exactly unicorns and rainbows when he lived.

[minuspace]

It could be argued that a consumer society is itself against what Lao Tsu considered "nature".

I don't think China was exactly unicorns and rainbows when he lived.

Lao Tsu  vs.  Doritos Natural, fight

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

It could be argued that a consumer society is itself against what Lao Tsu considered "nature".

I don't think China was exactly unicorns and rainbows when he lived.

Lao Tsu  vs.  Doritos Natural, fight

[Cain]

It could be argued that a consumer society is itself against what Lao Tsu considered "nature".

I don't think China was exactly unicorns and rainbows when he lived.

True, but I don't think we could consider it a consumer society or even its ancient equivalents, the merchant-commerce driven society (like say Ancient Greece).

I think LMNO does bring up a point though...what does Lao-Tze mean by natural?  Although there's some dispute about exactly when he was born, it is generally held that he spent his time as a Keeper for the Zhou state archives.  If we take the earlier dates of his birth, we have, then we have a situation like this:

The Eastern Zhou was characterized by an accelerating collapse of royal authority, although the king's ritual importance allowed over five more centuries of rule. The Confucian chronicle of the early years of this process led to its title of the "Spring and Autumn" period. The partition of Jin in the mid-5th century BC initiated a second phase, the "Warring States".[10] In 403 BC, the Zhou court recognized Han, Zhao, and Wei as fully independent states; in 344 BC, the first – Duke Hui of Wei – claimed the royal title of king for himself. A series of states rose to prominence before each falling in turn, but Zhou was a minor player in these conflicts.

The last Zhou king is traditionally taken to be Nan, who was killed when Qin captured the capital Chengzhou in 256 BC. A "King Hui" was declared, but his splinter state was fully removed by 249 BC. Qin's unification of China concluded in 221 BC with Qin Shihuang's annexation of Qi.

The Eastern Zhou, however, is also remembered as the golden age of Chinese philosophy: the Hundred Schools of Thought which flourished as rival lords patronized itinerant shi scholars is led by the example of Qi's Jixia Academy. The Nine Schools of Thought which came to dominate the others were Confucianism (as interpreted by Mencius and others), Legalism, Taoism, Mohism, the utopian communalist Agriculturalism, two strains of Diplomatists, the sophistic Logicians, Sun-tzu's Militarists, and the Naturalists

Shortly after the royal family's move to Chengzhou, a hierarchical alliance system arose where the Zhou king would give the title of hegemon to the leader of the state with the most powerful military; the hegemon was obligated to protect both the weaker Zhou states and the Zhou royalty from the intruding non-Zhou peoples:[13][14] the Northern Di, the Southern Man, the Eastern Yi, and the Western Rong. This political framework retained the fēngjiàn power structure, though interstate and intrastate conflict often led to disregard for feudal customs, respect for the Ji family, and solidarity with other Zhou peoples.[15] The king's prestige legitimized the military leaders of the states, and helped mobilize collective defense of Zhou territory against "barbarians."[16]

Over the next two centuries, the four most powerful states—Qin, Jin, Qi and Chu—struggled for power. These multi-city states often used the pretext of aid and protection to intervene and gain suzerainty over the smaller states. During this rapid expansion,[11] interstate relations alternated between low-level warfare and complex diplomacy.

Which does not implie that Lao-Tze approved.  Just the opposite, in fact:

The third story in Sima Qian states that Laozi grew weary of the moral decay of life in Chengzhou and noted the kingdom's decline. He ventured west to live as a hermit in the unsettled frontier at the age of 160.

Admittedly, a bit old for the frontier life, but lets assume that there is a kernel of truth to the claim.

Going down Lao-Tze's own page, it does seem he has a different interpretation of natural than "in accordance with the society in which one lives":

People have desires and free will (and thus are able to alter their own nature). Many act "unnaturally", upsetting the natural balance of the Dao. The Daodejing intends to lead students to a "return" to their natural state, in harmony with Dao.[38] Language and conventional wisdom are critically assessed. Taoism views them as inherently biased and artificial, widely using paradoxes to sharpen the point.[39]

Livia Kohn provides an example of how Laozi encouraged a change in approach, or return to "nature", rather than action. Technology may bring about a false sense of progress. The answer provided by Laozi is not the rejection of technology, but instead seeking the calm state of wu wei, free from desires. This relates to many statements by Laozi encouraging rulers to keep their people in "ignorance", or "simple-minded". Some scholars insist this explanation ignores the religious context, and others question it as an apologetic of the philosophical coherence of the text. It would not be unusual political advice if Laozi literally intended to tell rulers to keep their people ignorant. However, some terms in the text, such as "valley spirit" (gushen) and "soul" (po), bear a metaphysical context and cannot be easily reconciled with a purely ethical reading of the work.

Elements of that do reinforce your interpretation, especially if one takes an ethical reading of his work, but some parts do clash, notably being "free from desires" part, something our cultures generally do not promote.

It also notes:

Wu wei (無爲), literally "non-action" or "not acting", is a central concept of the Daodejing. The concept of wu wei is multifaceted, and reflected in the words' multiple meanings, even in English translation; it can mean "not doing anything", "not forcing", "not acting" in the theatrical sense, "creating nothingness", "acting spontaneously", and "flowing with the moment."[40]

It is a concept used to explain ziran (自然), or harmony with the Dao. It includes the concepts that value distinctions are ideological and seeing ambition of all sorts as originating from the same source. Laozi used the term broadly with simplicity and humility as key virtues, often in contrast to selfish action. On a political level, it means avoiding such circumstances as war, harsh laws and heavy taxes.

Which is interesting.  Many westerners who go on about wu-wei...well, I've not seen them talk about "avoidance" before.  Seems a little too active for their interpretations of wu-wei...though sometimes, any action seems a little too active for their interpretations of wu-wei.

Which is a point.  A lot of interpretations of things, especially those which get appropriated by western counterculture and the new age movement in particular often end up acquiring a commerical, libertarian slant.  I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice this overlap and tendency.  You can easily see that interpretation here.

So I think there is an argument it is distinct, as Lao-Tze intended it...but I strongly suspect it's often interpreted in the way you describe, or effectively similar.

[LMNO]

Thanks, Cain.

It would be a step too far to say that's exactly what I was thinking, but the brush is broad enough.  I've felt Wu-Wei isn't as apathetic as "Do Nothing"... or at least, much like Thelema or the Law of Fives, there's a second half that isn't recognized or mentioned very often.

So, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" means something completely different unless you add "love is the law, love under will".
"All things are related to the number five" gets a whole new perspective when you add "depending on the inventiveness of the viewer".
"Do Nothing" sounds hopeless, unless a context is provided.  Let's go with a section of Chapter 2

Therefore the sages:
Manage the work of detached actions
Conduct the teaching of no words
They work with myriad things but do not control
They create but do not possess
They act but do not presume
They succeed but do not dwell on success
It is because they do not dwell on success
That it never goes away


So, you could say "Do Nothing that gets in your own way".  Or, as I like to put it, "Don't fuck up the rhythm."  And from a great enough height, eating junk food and watching TV all day is totally fucking up the rhythm.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Thanks guys. I'll meditate on this.

[hooplala]

I've always assumed Diogenes was a good example of wu wei.  He shunned contemporary morals, lived nude in a ceramic jar, defecated and masturbated wherever he wanted. He claimed dogs have the right way to live life, and what's more natural than a dog (if we ignore selective breeding for a moment)?

[minuspace]

The nothing(ness) element, like in Nagarguna (sp.?), works as the pivot for all this (non)sense IMHO.  Nihilists seem to have cooped the term with their misunderstanding, and the rest is history.  One day, the world of things will appear as it is, the veil to Nothingness, and confusions will dissolve.  Until then, they will believe anything, and it's my fault.  Until then:

...  There may be other attacks but now one can handle them as small fires and not as a whole burning forest.

(Confucius, atrib.)

[Cainad (dec.)]

*ANECDOTE WARNING, TAKE WITH AS MANY GRAINS OF SALT AS DESIRED*

From what I've been told by my martial arts instructor, who has spent a fair amount of time in China with practitioners of various disciplines, practicing Daoists are anything but listless, no-effort, or apathetic. Apparently they (meaning the practicing monks/priests/whatever) are very dynamic and active people.

As interpreted third-hand by a roundeye, to practice Daoism is to actively engage with the dynamic and changing world, finding the best place to be within it so that achieving one's goals seems effortless because you're working with what the world gives you.

[LMNO]

As interpreted third-hand by a roundeye, to practice Daoism is to actively engage with the dynamic and changing world, finding the best place to be within it so that achieving one's goals seems effortless because you're working with what the world gives you.

Yeah, that.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Also, Cain's history lesson. Thanks for that, dude.

There's also something to be said about Buddhists and Daoists arriving at roughly the same goals, but through opposite means (again, third-hand interpretation yadda yadda), but I'm on my phone and I'm supposed to be doing my job right now so that might come later if I remember.

[minuspace]

I remember once during practice being called-out for my round-eyes being too slanted.   Took me years to understand that I was just trying too hard.  And sometimes I still just can't stop trying to force it I like this thread.