Author Topic: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.  (Read 1263 times)

Junkenstein

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Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« on: August 23, 2016, 09:41:06 pm »
I find cause to examine the current monkey motivations for a range of things. As an impartial watcher of mankind for your race, I suspect you may have valuable insights.

A long time ago, a horrible sales bastard taught me that the main motivations to any decision being made are:

1-Greed
2-Ignorance
3-Anger
4-Practicality
5-Love

In pretty much that order. If you can suss why a decision is being made in the first place, you can just keep shouting about that particular thing and get your way.

I hated that man with an extreme passion, mainly because he seems to even still be right. We've got some smarter monkeys emerging, sure, but they're still wired to fuck themselves or each other over. If this isn't on a biological level, it's at the least built into the framework of society.

Take the example in the open bar thread. Reasonable explanations were Hucksterism or idiocy. The educational background killed that, so you're left with a smart monkey acting out the top motivation. Greed, for our purposes here covers self interest in the simplest forms. If there's a quick buck or benefit, greed.

Next most common, you have Ignorance. I had a recent client that paid in excess of £400 for a free piece of software from their trusted outsourced IT. They didn't need it and it's barely worthwhile for what it is for anyway. But it's a nice logo and easy sell. I'm sure I've told you all about the guy who leased a fax machine for £30/month. This decade.

Next up are the OUTRAGED at THINGS. The cause is all that matters and whether that cause will actually help or hurt them they've made their decision and they're not changing it. Not for anything like evidence and self righteousness kicks in if you offer incentives for changing their minds.

Now into terrible minorities here, around 10% (or less) are actually making decisions based on what the problem is what what will likely solve it. These people call you and have already sold themselves. When this occurs in a non business sense, you can get anything from reasonable people to those with more extreme solutions. This is unfortunate as I mentioned these people are practical so the chance of actual harm escalates wildly.

Then finally, the lovestruck. Another minority overall (Under 5% was the pitched number). These are as often in love with themselves as much as others and make decisions based around how they will appear to the object of their affections. Affectation is all with these buggers and logic doesn't really feature.


I never discussed Woo with arsehole that told me about this. This leads to the question of how much Woo is currently just greed compared to ignorance. And further questions about if the main motivation still driving the world is in fact greed. Ignorance seems to be climbing at an alarming rate.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 09:51:46 pm »
You forgot a big one.  FEAR.  Fear is the easiest handle by which to make people make the decisions you want them to make, even when the results are not in their best interests or are in fact in opposition to their interests.  I do not mean the fear/anger reaction, I mean the fear/crap yourself reaction.  A look at modern British and United States public opinion and voting record is all you need to see this.

We have a current campaign ad in Arizona that goes something like this:  "In these frightening times, we don't need <candidate X>, because she believes in wasting time on non-military solutions.  She's bad for Arizona.'  No shit.  More or less exact wording.

During the state referendum on Gay marriage, the opposed faction's ad showed a little old lady, crying that she didn't want her children's families to be destroyed.  So we can add HATE in as companion.  Not anger, just plain out hatred. 

SB1072 (the anti-Brown people law) speaks for itself.  Hate and fear.

So if you want to sell someone something, scare the shit out of them and hold up a scapegoat.  It works even better than greed.

And yeah, woo is ignorance of science and anger at those who know more than you do.  Seriously.  I can't speak for the UK, but Americans want their electronics and the power to run them, but still want to hate smart people.  They want that power cheap, but go all NIMBY when you talk about setting up power stations.
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Junkenstein

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 10:05:28 pm »
I find myself inclined to agree. Between HATE and FEAR you've had everything from the election cycle shennangins (Not even looking at this year, Bush ran quite well on the "Other guy can't keep you SAFE" line. Twice.

So are we suggesting that the main motivation list for monkeys runs something like:

Fear
Greed
Ignorance
Anger Hate, or Hate Lite (TM pending)
Practicality
Love


There's not the same level of outright hate for the smart here as I've seen the States exhibit, but there's been a similar rise of distrust of any kind of experts. Brexit, for example, came about directly by idiots stating that experts are idiots, always wrong and to be ignored. People laughed at such statements. Turns out it was "laughing with" not "Laughing at".

I can't even begin to explain the shitshow that is power and utilities over here. The short version is that a lot of power plants need to go over the next 5 years, there's pretty much only 1 contractor that can tender the works and there's solid plans in place to build exactly 0 to replace the ones that need to go. It's a massive disaster that's also pretty much inevitable. Partly due to the NIMBY issue, partly as there's no real political will as the eventual contracts will be very tasty and a great carve up.

For our non english speakers, I'm talking about bribery and various forms of corruption.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 10:25:25 pm »
I find myself inclined to agree. Between HATE and FEAR you've had everything from the election cycle shennangins (Not even looking at this year, Bush ran quite well on the "Other guy can't keep you SAFE" line. Twice.

So are we suggesting that the main motivation list for monkeys runs something like:

Fear
Greed
Ignorance
Anger Hate, or Hate Lite (TM pending)
Practicality
Love


There's not the same level of outright hate for the smart here as I've seen the States exhibit, but there's been a similar rise of distrust of any kind of experts. Brexit, for example, came about directly by idiots stating that experts are idiots, always wrong and to be ignored. People laughed at such statements. Turns out it was "laughing with" not "Laughing at".

I can't even begin to explain the shitshow that is power and utilities over here. The short version is that a lot of power plants need to go over the next 5 years, there's pretty much only 1 contractor that can tender the works and there's solid plans in place to build exactly 0 to replace the ones that need to go. It's a massive disaster that's also pretty much inevitable. Partly due to the NIMBY issue, partly as there's no real political will as the eventual contracts will be very tasty and a great carve up.

For our non english speakers, I'm talking about bribery and various forms of corruption.

I'd leave anger in, and just add hate.  You can sell people shit when they're angry that you couldn't if they just had a low grade hate on.  Trying to say that there are a limited number of emotions that people make decisions on is a very salesman thing to do, and probably results from MBA poisoning.

I mean, shit, envy isn't even mentioned, and "keeping up with the Joneses" has ALWAYS been a thing.  Likewise, sex sells everything and it's not the same as love at all.

The key is, I think, to tailor the targeted emotion to the sale. 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Junkenstein

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 11:29:10 pm »
The thing is though, the sale isn't particularly subtle anywhere, anymore. When was the last time you saw an advert trying to tap into anything as nuanced as Envy? I'd class sex selling under Greed, by the by. Particularly advertising's type of objectification.

And it's not an in-stone list per say, more like a personal rule of thumb that I'm trying to develop. I'm guessing that if I can see an obviously dumb decision and determine why relatively quickly, I'll be able to get back to not giving a fuck much faster. It gives much more time to those doing things that at least have some shade of grey to it which tend to be much more interesting cases. Look at the amount of time we waste on Trump and co when shit's still pretty sideways in the Ukraine. There's that ISIS issue too. Heard anything about China recently? Exactly, neither have I, but I'm sure Cain could tell you that something horrific has happened there in the past week or so.


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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 07:49:35 am »
I think your list is shaping up nicely but more emphasis needs placed on fear. Besides being top of the list, I'd suggest making it the top fifty or so, with the rest listed beneath. Thing is, if you're capable of scaring the shit out of your mark, pretty much every other motivating factor pales to insignificance. It follows that employing any other motivating factor than the liberal application of blind terror is the plight of the truly desperate.

I think there may even be an argument that the rest of the list can be boiled down to fear in some form or other.
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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 09:11:20 am »
The thing is though, the sale isn't particularly subtle anywhere, anymore. When was the last time you saw an advert trying to tap into anything as nuanced as Envy? I'd class sex selling under Greed, by the by. Particularly advertising's type of objectification.

And it's not an in-stone list per say, more like a personal rule of thumb that I'm trying to develop. I'm guessing that if I can see an obviously dumb decision and determine why relatively quickly, I'll be able to get back to not giving a fuck much faster. It gives much more time to those doing things that at least have some shade of grey to it which tend to be much more interesting cases. Look at the amount of time we waste on Trump and co when shit's still pretty sideways in the Ukraine. There's that ISIS issue too. Heard anything about China recently? Exactly, neither have I, but I'm sure Cain could tell you that something horrific has happened there in the past week or so.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/

Also, just to throw in here, in the intelligence services, they use the acronym MICE as a shorthand to remember the most common motivators when handling an agent and why they may want to work for you:

Money
Ideology
Compromise(d)
Ego

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2016, 09:43:31 am »
I think your list is shaping up nicely but more emphasis needs placed on fear. Besides being top of the list, I'd suggest making it the top fifty or so, with the rest listed beneath. Thing is, if you're capable of scaring the shit out of your mark, pretty much every other motivating factor pales to insignificance. It follows that employing any other motivating factor than the liberal application of blind terror is the plight of the truly desperate.

I think there may even be an argument that the rest of the list can be boiled down to fear in some form or other.

Please make it, I'd like to read such a thing. I'm not sold on Fear as the all time winner yet though, particularly when it's so easy to point at so fucking many decisions that were obviously made on greed.

MICE again puts greed high on the list. I'd assume the money aspect would cover debts and the like as much as new acquisitions. Gambling problem or such I would guess fall under the compromised angle?

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2016, 10:07:45 am »
I find cause to examine the current monkey motivations for a range of things. As an impartial watcher of mankind for your race, I suspect you may have valuable insights.

A long time ago, a horrible sales bastard taught me that the main motivation to any decision being made [is]:

1-
2-Ignorance
3-
4-
5-


...

 Ignorance seems to be climbing at an alarming rate.
That's what I say as well.
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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 12:16:33 pm »
I think your list is shaping up nicely but more emphasis needs placed on fear. Besides being top of the list, I'd suggest making it the top fifty or so, with the rest listed beneath. Thing is, if you're capable of scaring the shit out of your mark, pretty much every other motivating factor pales to insignificance. It follows that employing any other motivating factor than the liberal application of blind terror is the plight of the truly desperate.

I think there may even be an argument that the rest of the list can be boiled down to fear in some form or other.

Please make it, I'd like to read such a thing. I'm not sold on Fear as the all time winner yet though, particularly when it's so easy to point at so fucking many decisions that were obviously made on greed.

MICE again puts greed high on the list. I'd assume the money aspect would cover debts and the like as much as new acquisitions. Gambling problem or such I would guess fall under the compromised angle?

Either/or.  Depends on the context - who the gambling debt is to, whether they have dependents who are aware of it, etc.  A married man with kids in private school racking up debt to the mafia is very different from a single guy who likes playing poker despite being fucing terrible at it and not being able to afford being that fucking terrible at it.

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 12:29:02 pm »
I see. I take it that it's also ordered that way as the degree of effort to manipulate an asset rises with each. Throwing money is quite easy, ideological folk may require anything from a handwave upwards to convince them. Gathering Intel to compromise a target is probably far more costly and time consuming than a bribe, etc.
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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2016, 12:58:30 pm »
Here's where I'm coming from. Greed is an overreaction to the fear of having nothing. Think about common appeals to greed - "You'll never have to worry about bills again" - ie. waving the fear of debt in your face. Ignorance - fear of the unknown. Hate - fear of the other...

It's terrified primates all the way down.
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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 01:18:29 pm »
I see. I take it that it's also ordered that way as the degree of effort to manipulate an asset rises with each. Throwing money is quite easy, ideological folk may require anything from a handwave upwards to convince them. Gathering Intel to compromise a target is probably far more costly and time consuming than a bribe, etc.

Not as such, all potential methods of securing an agent have associated pitfalls and problems with it.  Ideological people can be inflexible or swayed by policy changes, those who are corrupt can always be outbid, ego generally dissolves into narcissism and compromised people can always bite the bullet or have their failures exposed by other parties.

Not to mention most people are going to be motivated as a matter of degree, not category.  Someone selling information for ego gratification may also be in it for the money.  The lines become blurred as to where the "real" motivation lies and thus the potential pitfalls become harder to account for.

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 01:24:45 pm »
Here's where I'm coming from. Greed is an overreaction to the fear of having nothing. Think about common appeals to greed - "You'll never have to worry about bills again" - ie. waving the fear of debt in your face. Ignorance - fear of the unknown. Hate - fear of the other...

It's terrified primates all the way down.

Sure, but functionally your theory has a whiff of "we are all one".  If we accept that everything is fear based, we then necessarily have to clarify how that fear is presented or being manifested in order to resolve or exploit it.  Which leads us back into the OP and Cain's MICE.  So all you're really doing is adding an extra layer that doesn't have much practical use.

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Re: Roger, Let us speak of Motivations.
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 05:38:10 pm »
The key, in my mind is how to get a scare into any call to action. Buy now, while stocks last - be afraid there won't be any left if you tarry.

Also you need to be aware that some people are easier to scare than others. Ask yourself, what scares your target demographic? Different things for different people. Some are scared of 80mph, others you have to go up to 120.

All the factors in the op are solid motivators but they only really come into their own when there's fear to back it up. If not acting is scarier than acting, then action will happen. Otherwise said primate is just as likely to demand a period of "thinking about it" and hum and haw for ages while any opponent you may have will find opportunity to sway the decision.

The successful motivators have learned this. It's pretty obvious if you're looking for it. Other things will work, yes but, without a scare, they will be non-optimal solutions.
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