A challenge for all Bush-Haters

[gnimbley]

Dear Friend,

This morning, the ACLU filed a federal lawsuit charging that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld bears direct responsibility for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody. The lawsuit seeks a court declaration that Secretary Rumsfeld violated the U.S. Constitution and international laws.

Officials at the highest levels of government bear the ultimate responsibility for the actions of the U.S. military. I urge you to join us in our call for accountability by viewing a two-minute Web movie and calling on the Attorney General to appoint an outside special counsel to investigate how our government's torture policies took such a misguided path.

This landmark lawsuit was filed by a coalition of human rights advocates on behalf of eight former detainees who were incarcerated in U.S. detention facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they were subjected to torture and other cruel and degrading treatment. None of the men was ever charged with a crime.

Because I know you care about the guiding values of justice and liberty that define American life, I'm writing to ask you join us in seeking to hold our leaders accountable for the torture carried out in our name.


"Watch  our Web movie: "The New Face of America?"

Send  a message to Attorney General Gonzales urging him to appoint a special  counsel to investigate high-level violations of the War Crimes Act and  other federal laws forbidding torture.


Because of the support of people like you, the ACLU was able to carry  out the groundbreaking Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits that  have brought to light much of what we - and the world - know about the  torture practices of our government and the Bush Administration.

To preserve our country's international reputation as a beacon of freedom and to protect our own soldiers from similar mistreatment, our leaders must be held accountable.

I am never more proud to lead the ACLU than at times like these when our voices are raised together to demand justice for those who cannot demand it for themselves. Thank you for being part of that work.

Sincerely,

Anthony D. Romero
Executive Director, ACLU

Yes, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU.

(Unfortunately, since the email went out about an hour ago, the web site
is deluged with requests for the movie, so you may have problems
getting it to load.)

[Bella]

Yes, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU.

Me, too. I'm happy to see this.

[East Coast Hustle]

I used to live near UCLA...does that count for anything?

[Bella]

I used to live near UCLA...does that count for anything?

I means you need another drink!
And a cookie.

Poor baby. You actually lived in LA?

[East Coast Hustle]

yup...just off of North Main in Lincoln Heights...me and Nikoli Volkoff were the only gringos in the barrio, basically...lived right on top of the Angel City Brewery building...tended bar in Venice Beach...there were things I didn't like about LA, but all in all it was probably the happiest I ever was, except for maybe when i lived in Mammoth....

[Voice of Truth]

Good stuff.  Ok Rog, as it turns out Mr. Arar was both a Canadian citizen AND a Syrian citizen so wrong there.  Also, I know that saying this will open up all proceeding to comments to accusations of "Your info is obviously wrong" and "O'Reilly?  Give me a break..." and whatever else, but I don't give a shit.  Here goes.

So I'm watching O'Reilly last night, who, yes, I do like.  OMG.  What a fucking moron I am.  Anyway, he did a piece on this Arar fella which I thought was pretty interesting since I had never heard about the case until you posted it here yesterday.  It turns out that, for one, it was Canada who marked the guy and then told us so we got him when he got here, and since he was also a Syrian citizen and neither Canade nor the U.S. wanted him, we shipped him back over there.  Well he was in their custody for like two years and once he was released he sued saying he was tortured.  This is the best part.  O'Reilly was asking a reporter who has been closely following this what all the proof is that the guy was tortured and the guy said thus far there is no "proof", only his accusations and our knowledge that the Syrians do torture people.  That being said, you people seem to be the supreme doubters of all things unless evidence (and lots of it) is put forth, so basically this is just some guy saying that it happened and we are supposed to accept it as fact now?  O'Reilly said they called him and said "Please come on, we just want to know your side of the story."  He was like, "Look, there is little info on this thus far and if something wrong was done people need to get punished, but the guy won't tell us anything and this reporter is saying there is no documentation or anything to prove his accusations so I don't know what to think thus far."  I have to pretty much agree.  If the guy was tortured he probably could have gone to a doctor and had them document all his injuries once he was released, but he apparently did not and this story, thus far, seems to hold little water.  We'll see how it develops.

As to the Rumsfeld thing, big surprise there.  Several internal investigation have found no evidence Rumsfeld condoned the torture that took place.  Gonzalez mentioned ideas in a memo that Bush DID NOT enact, and yet the ACLU has what "proof" on this one?  Sounds like they're up to their usual game of being partisan hacks.  They are the biggest non-violent threat to America.  Period.  (I know you guys are going to love that comment, but oh well...)

[Voice of Truth]

By the way, any of you guys ever listen to Stan Getz' old stuff when he was doing the whole bossa nova thing?  He was playing with a Portuguese couple, the Gilbertos.  The wife had a voice, hmm hmm, sweet as silk.  I was just sitting here listening to it and getting in the groove and thought I'd ask.  I don't really know why...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Good stuff.  Ok Rog, as it turns out Mr. Arar was both a Canadian citizen AND a Syrian citizen so wrong there.  

It turns out that, for one, it was Canada who marked the guy and then told us so we got him when he got here, and since he was also a Syrian citizen and neither Canade nor the U.S. wanted him, we shipped him back over there.  

1.  Nobody is debating this.  However, his residence was Canada.

2.  WRONG.  Canada was VERY interested in getting him back.  In fact, the biggest beef Canada had about this was the fact that the USA shipped him back AFTER Canada demanded to see him, and despite Canada's asking America to refrain from taking ANY action until the Canadian Consul could seek instructions from the Canadian parliment.  Instead, America shipped him to Syria IMMEDIATELY, where he was wanted for having evaded his military requirement (in the SYRIAN ARMY, mister super-patriot).  Upon his arrival in Syria, he was jailed and tortured, and was only spared (and returned to Canada) because Canada threatened to nationalize all Syrian interests in Canada, and toss out their ambassador.

HINT:  Getting your information from O'Rielly is about as reliable as a hippie getting his information from IndyMedia.

[Bob the Mediocre]

O'Reilly was asking a reporter who has been closely following this what all the proof is that the guy was tortured and the guy said thus far there is no "proof", only his accusations and our knowledge that the Syrians do torture people.

I doubt that.  :P
Who is this reporter?

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

Dear Friend,

This morning, the ACLU filed a federal lawsuit charging that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld bears direct responsibility for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody. The lawsuit seeks a court declaration that Secretary Rumsfeld violated the U.S. Constitution and international laws.

<---snip-->

(Unfortunately, since the email went out about an hour ago, the web site
is deluged with requests for the movie, so you may have problems
getting it to load.)

I knew I should have checked that email when it came in.  W007 for the ACLU !!!!!!!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Dear Friend,

This morning, the ACLU filed a federal lawsuit charging that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld bears direct responsibility for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody. The lawsuit seeks a court declaration that Secretary Rumsfeld violated the U.S. Constitution and international laws.

<---snip-->

(Unfortunately, since the email went out about an hour ago, the web site
is deluged with requests for the movie, so you may have problems
getting it to load.)

I knew I should have checked that email when it came in.  W007 for the ACLU !!!!!!!

This is an old cut and paste, but relevant:

http://www.comcast.net/News/DOMESTIC//XML/1152_Cabinet/11037619-3d01-4f08-9d31-d03a89f786ef.html

Rumsfeld: Prisoner Abuse 'Un-American'  

43 minutes ago  

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Tuesday condemned the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers as "totally unacceptable and un-American" and said the Pentagon would take all steps necessary to bring those responsible to justice.

"We're taking and will continue to take whatever steps are necessary to hold accountable those that may have violated the code of military conduct and betrayed the trust placed in them by the American people," Rumsfeld told a news conference.

Rumsfeld called the allegations "deeply disturbing."

"I have no doubt that we will take these charges and allegations most seriously," he said.

The disclosures of prisoner abuse at Baghdad's main prison was "totally unacceptable and un-American," he said. Rumsfeld disputed critics in Congress who have said the Pentagon moved too slowly and asserted that correct military procedures were followed.

"These things are complicated, they take some time," he said of the investigations. "The system works. The system works."

On Capitol Hill, outrage over the allegations spread.The Senate's top Democrat, Minority Leader Tom Daschle, demanded to know why President Bush was not earlier informed of the report and why Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Richard Myers have not yet read the two-month old report.

And, lawmakers emerged from a closed-door briefing with Pentagon officials and said similar abuses _ though "small in number" _ may also have occurred at other Iraqi facilities and in Afghanistan.

"There were some incidents in Afghanistan," said Sen. John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, after the panel's closed briefing with Pentagon officials. "We did not get the full details but were left with the impression that they were relatively isolated and certainly small in number."

He said briefers told the committee that the sexual humiliation photographed in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison _ which have drawn worldwide condemnation _ stand out among the other alleged incidents and "very little parallels this elsewhere." And he added, "This is as serious a problem of breakdown in discipline as I've ever observed."

Rumsfeld said it was "premature" to know if the abuse had existed in other prisons run by the U.S. military, including those in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Many of the allegations of abuse were contained in an internal Pentagon report completed in February. Daschle demanded to know why Bush was not earlier informed of the report and "why, in other words, has there been this extraordinary disconnect, this unbelievable failure of communication, of oversight?"

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Tuesday that Bush first became aware of the allegations of abuse some time after the Pentagon began looking into it but did not see the pictures until they were made public and did not learn of the classified Pentagon report until news organizations reported its existence.

Rumsfeld said he hoped that any damage to the image of the U.S. military in world opinion would improve over time, despite the disclosures. "I was stunned by all of it," he said.

But, he said, "The world has seen problems of this type before...People do things that they ought not to do and that are harmful and that are disappointing and in many instances are disgraceful."

He said he didn't know whether the abuse that had been documented amounted to torture. "All of our rules, all of our procedures, all of our training, is against the abuse of people that are detained," he said.

Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, denied any foot dragging on the part of the Pentagon in pursuing accusations made in the internal report.

"There has been no attempt to hide this," Pace said, saying the February report was moving up the chain of command.

Pace said the February report had been moving up the chain of command.

Pace said Pentagon officials agreed with the internal Army report's findings that the prisons in Iraq were understaffed for the number of prisoners incarcerated and that those serving as prison guards had been inadequately trained.

Rumsfeld was asked about the damage to U.S. credibility done by the worldwide distribution of photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused. The episode is "unhelpful. In a fundamental way, it's harmful," he said.

"It is, we hope, an isolated case," he added.

Meanwhile, an attorney for a military police officer being investigated in the abuse probe, said on NBC's "Today" show that the photographs of the Iraq prisoners that have inspired widespread revulsion "were obviously staged" in order to manipulate the prisoners into cooperating with intelligence officials.

"They were part of the psychological manipulation of the prisoners being interrogated," said Guy Womack, attorney for Charles A. Graner, Jr., a Greene County, Pa. corrections officer who was activated to the military in March 2003 and served at Abu Ghraib.

"It was being controlled and devised by the military intelligence community and other governmental agencies, including the CIA," Womack said. The soldiers, he said, were simply "following orders."

On Capitol Hill, concern over the abuses spread. Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., emerged from the briefing saying he feared allegations made public so far are "the beginning rather than the end" of the abuse allegations.

But Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., told reporters outside the hearing he was "extremely hopeful that ... this was not a widespread pattern of abuse and that the conduct of the overwhelming majority of Americans is honorable and decent."

McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, said such abuses would not be tolerated or excused.

"The rules for the treatment of prisoners of war are very clear," McCain said. "There is no justification for this kind of treatment."

On March 20, criminal charges were filed against six military police officers. As many as three of the six cases have been referred to military trial, and others are in various stages of preliminary hearings, officials said.

In addition to the criminal cases, seven others _ all military police _ have been given noncriminal punishment _ in six of the cases they got letters of reprimand. Some of the seven are members of the Army Reserve, according to a defense official who direct knowledge of the situation.

In other developments, the top U.N. human rights agency has opened an investigation into civil rights in Iraq, and urged the U.S. military to prosecute soldiers alleged to have abused prisoners.

And, U.S. officials in Baghdad ordered a halt to using hoods to blindfold Iraqi prisoners, a military spokesman said, in the wake of the uproar over abuse of detainees.


Rumsfeld should be tarred and feathered.  Why does he hate Amendment VIII?

[Voice of Truth]

Well the reporter was just giving the facts and really no opinions, other than actually saying, if you look at Syria's history of torture and what our own State Dep't says about them, it probably went down.  He seemed, if anything to support the article's claims, but he also admitted there was no actual "proof" thus far.  He also said Canada didn't want him either because they believed him to BE a terrorist.  That was the info he gathered.  And I'm pretty sure it was Michael Isikoff.

[Voice of Truth]

No bites on Stan Getz, huh?  Dirty...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well the reporter was just giving the facts and really no opinions, other than actually saying, if you look at Syria's history of torture and what our own State Dep't says about them, it probably went down.  He seemed, if anything to support the article's claims, but he also admitted there was no actual "proof" thus far.  He also said Canada didn't want him either because they believed him to BE a terrorist.  That was the info he gathered.  And I'm pretty sure it was Michael Isikoff.

He's pretty wrong.  I remember the incident quite clearly, as I had to listen to my aged grandfather (who still lives in Canada) bitch and rant during the whole thing.  As such, I paid pretty close attention.

Perhaps you should avail yourself of google, rather than taking the single, horribly biased, opinion of Bill "soapy tits" O'Rielly as gospel.

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

a bunch of crap most likely

I thought you were dead, or something