Capeshit

[Cramulus]

I don't know why I needed to start a topic about this. Not liking something isn't usually an interesting opinion, so this post contains zero calories. But I gotta get it off my chest. I can't stand 99% of Superhero fiction.

I think it started when I saw Blade in theaters. Everybody I went with was like "that was so fuckin cool", and I was like... really? Every time he kills a dude, he does an absurd pose as if he knows there's a camera there. It's weird, that stuff doesn't bug me as much when it's an animation or a comic book, but when you film live people doing things that make sense for a still frame, the whole thing breaks down for me. It just seems corny to me.

Maybe my hangup is believability. When I see a film with live actors, it seems more relatable and immersive, so certain things bug me more. In a cartoon, if Batman's doing this gravelly character-voice, it works. But Christian Bale doing the cookie monster voice doesn't seem cool. Like if I were there in person, I'd be like "why is this guy talking like that, is he sick?"

There are exceptions. I really liked (most of) the Nolan Batmans. I liked Watchmen, probably because it's critical of the whole superhero genre. I've only seen a couple of the rando superhero movies like Dr. Strange, and they successfully killed 2.5 hours of time on a plane, so that was satisfying.

I like the moment in the first X-Men movie, where they put on the outfits for the first time, and Wolverine is like "What, you expected a yellow leotard?" Because yeah, it acknowledged that not everything in the comics is gonna work in a live format. I wish that logic was applied to almost every aspect of superhero movies.

Don't get me wrong - I'm into some nerdy shit, so this isn't me being on a high horse about how superhero trash is childish or anything. You're allowed to like it, you do you. My hobby is putting on elf ears and saying Thou, so I am not sitting in a position to condescend on anybody. I'm just saying they're not for me. But the problem is, all of my hobbies are filled with people who get all sweaty when some obscure bubblegum character gets their own feature film. So I'm constantly having the same conversation "OH DID YOU SEE JESSICA JONES? I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING IN 9 MINUTES", "ah, no, missed that one." and then they say GOD DAMN over and over again while wiggling their eyebrows at me.

Then comes the evangelists... DID YOU WATCH UMBRELLA ACADEMY? no, it doesn't seem like my cup of tea. BUT YOU GOTTA CHECK IT OUT.  You know, I don't get into the superhero stuff that much. THIS IS DIFFERENT, IT'S REALLY CHARACTER DRIVEN. yeah but uhhhh so is the Full House reboot, have you seen that?

Getting back to the Alan Moore vibe... I wonder sometimes about why these things are so popular, aside from the spectacle. What is it, exactly, about the superhero genre that people keep flocking to?

Is it the fantasy of the benevolent tyrant? We live in times that are complex and grey, so there is a desire for simplicity--for some unimpeachable strongman to show up and do a fight that makes everything good again?

Can you imagine what the world would actually be like if a handful of random people had superpowers? Can you imagine what elections would be like? What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice? What about the intersection of power and celebrity? Superheroes would have ad deals and would go on podcasts. They'd be on commercials and SNL skits. There would be movies about them, and what the fuck would that look like?

Or, imagine if the Weird Science that gave Peter Parker spider powers was an over the counter medication. If some teenager can accidentally mutate into a badass, then big pharma would start rolling out FDA trials and selling it to the ultra-rich. It would be kinda like if everybody had a rocket launcher and a secret identity, the world would not be a better place.

So maybe these last two paragraphs tell me that I could like capeshit if it were framed differently. There's probably some good ones out there that I'd really like if I gave them a chance--but I dunno, there's a lot of media out there, I don't feel like I am really missing anything.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[chaotic neutral observer]

Then comes the evangelists... DID YOU WATCH UMBRELLA ACADEMY? no, it doesn't seem like my cup of tea.

I watched the first episode, or some of it, anyway.  The characters were flat, and the writing was uninspired.

Can you imagine what the world would actually be like if a handful of random people had superpowers? Can you imagine what elections would be like? What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice? What about the intersection of power and celebrity?

In the anime series "My Hero Academia", practically everyone has superpowers (although only a few of them have practical value).  In order to practice as a superhero, you need to be trained and licensed.  Unfortunately, the series doesn't explore this idea very much.

Superheroes would have ad deals and would go on podcasts. They'd be on commercials and SNL skits.

In "Mystery Men", Captain Amazing has the logos of his corporate sponsors on his costume. It was hilarious.  We need more superhero deconstruction movies.

[The Johnny]

Yeah like, the suspension of disbelief i feel its very important too for me, so if any scene, be it combat or dialogue is TELEGRAPHED CLEARLY as "im performing for you, oh audience, wasnt what i just did so cool???" i just think to myself "bro please just perform and pretend im not here, youre breaking the 4th wall and ruining it for everybody for no reason" - its analogous to something like laugh tracks that producers use to tell me that something is supposed to be funny because allegedly as a consumer i must have 50 IQ and cant be expected to know its funny, so any kind of telegraphy telling me i should be laughing or being impressed i feel its demeaning.

At least in the Dark Knight Trilogy i think its emphasized that Batman, the Joker and other characters are complete nutjobs, so them being so over the top for me doesnt break the immersion... its pathological sickos fighting each other for their own personal reasons.

And why superhero movies are popular? Id agree that its sometimes a want for a clearly defined black white morality, but its also some kind of detachment from responsability... everyone believes in "justice", whatever it means personally to each person, but how many are willing to do something beyond signing a change.org petition or sharing on facebook? So it justifies their lack of action by means of how only people with superpowers or billionaires have agency/power to change things

Also, the hero trope is older than dirt, even if superheroes are a degeneration of it... one could speak of Joseph Campbell and the Hero of a Thousand Faces.

P.S. All the Thano's saga is just a mediocre film adaptation of neo-malthussian ideas

[LMNO]

It provides the illusion of black-and-white morality.  Yes, even in the "grey-ish" Nolan stuff.

Plus, most often it's a trope checklist, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It's like campfire songs: Pretty much everyone knows them, so everybody can sing along and share in the experience.


EDITED TO ADD: I like superhero movies.  Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Guardians of the Galaxy were great.

[Faust]

Superheroes are a plot device, not a genre, they are only as good as the writer, themes and character exploration they perform.
All of the superhero films since Burtons are garbage (nolans Joker was good but on a re-watch, there is a lot of bluster to those films with very little substance).

Here comes an unsolicited WHATABOUT list which you probably don't want considering what you said, but here are some I consider to be the good stories.

The comics however have well written exceptions, but they dont tend to be popular.
Barring what you mentioned with watchmen, which is NOT a superhero story it is a critic of power fantasy and the dangerous morality of that (Ozemandias plot was a reflection of the logical outcome of)
Miracle Man is a scary comparison to Zarathustra that nicely compliments watchmen
Swamp thing (deals with a lot of complex themes, nicely played relationships and some of the mysticism reads almost like biblical parable, the death of Zatarro hurts)

Irrideemable is a wonderful superman / mad god parable of what happens when he goes beyond bad to irredeemable and the reason it has weight is The Plutonians snap, isn't portrayed as a sudden thing, but a gradual breakdown that is the logical outcome of his life. It flubs the very end but its a great journey.

Doom patrol (Garth Ennis, Keith Giffen and Gerard ways) for just surrealism with broken people works really well but you can barely call them a superhero team.
I wont talk about the Invisibles because I know you've read it Cram, it's still one of my favorites.

Watchmen being a critical analysis of superheroes is both formal and attempts to be fair to the story type... but Garth Ennis The Boys does not. It's mean spirited, sick sense of humor fun all the way but goes out of its way to attack all the established tropes of superheroes. It's got well developed characters as well despite its initial crass superficial story telling with occasional moments of genuine heart.

Starman Omibus. One of the worst things about superheroes is because they have to go on forever they can never have lasting changes or ends. This has a beautiful story arc with a definitive ending about the brother of star man who reluctantly takes up the mantle, before getting his arch nemesis pregnant and needing to deal with the outcome of that.

The bottom line is, follow talented writers, not characters and there are good stories to be had (Moore, Mark Maid, Garth Ennis, Brian azzerello, Jonathan Hickman, generally wont let you down).

For Films (fuck all, cheeseburger films)
For TV, Legion (surreal portrayal of a mentally ill person who also is a danger to himself and others because he has powers that occasionally goes up its own ass), Titans (1 season establishing with human frail characters) but it and thats about it.

[Doktor Howl]

Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.

[LMNO]

Oooh, Faust.... Good call with Legion on FX.  That is by far one of my favorite comic book representations.

[The Johnny]

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?

[LMNO]

I was under the impression that Batman v Superman owned that title.

[Doktor Howl]

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?

Well, yes.  But it was intended to be exactly that, and had its moments.

But it's no Hancock.

[LMNO]

Fine.  You're making me remember I watched Hancock.




I hate you.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.

Is that the one with Will Smith as the alcoholic superhero? If so I really loved it. The part where he tosses the kid up in the air is amazing

[hooplala]

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?

I like Deadpool, but he stole Ambush Bug's schtick, which means we will never get an Ambush Bug movie - that is likely both a blessing and a curse.

[LMNO]

Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.

Is that the one with Will Smith as the alcoholic superhero? If so I really loved it. The part where he tosses the kid up in the air is amazing

The first half was fun, the second half was an ungodly mess.

[Faust]

Deadpool has one of the best,  of the very few human relationships  in all the superhero films combined. Vanessa and wade are interesting characters... deadpool and the so so humour not so much