The Holy Rage

[The Wizard Joseph]

I both agree and disagree with everyone. 

nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.

But I think he and Joseph as cross-talking slightly. My silat style trains the old animal forms, so I let the monkey out when alone to train with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu2DkCZiAEA

Let us shift metaphors to one my teacher uses.

nullified is talking about the tiger, who needs no other reason to kill you than you are on his forest trail. It cares not that you are armed or what you are holding or doing and intends to knock your distracted ass down and kill you and consume what it wants of you.

Joseph is talking about the tigress, cornered in the bamboo grove with cubs behind her. She cares not what you are armed with but she will die before letting you get past her to the little ones.

That is why Shiva/Bacchus/Hanuman always has to learn the secrets of the universe from Kali/Eris(Rhea)/Guanyin before he can tackle the chaos of his previous bungling.

This concept of the tiger and The Tigress is very fascinating to me. The concept of having no fear of a weapon is definitely part of what I'm getting at.

[altered]

It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.

If I had been born in 1915, in Germany, might I have become an actual Nazi?  Is there anything innate about me as a person that would prevent this?  This question bothers me occasionally.  I know people who would have died first; I know people who, I think, would have worn the swastika with pride.  But I can't answer this question about myself.  Intelligence wouldn't prevent it; that often just leads to more convoluted rationalizations.  How much of my morality is learned, and how much is inherent?

Maybe it's better not to ask these questions.  Leave the ape in its cage, and throw it some fresh fruit now and then, to keep it from rattling the bars too much.  It's enough to know that it can't be trusted, without worrying too much about how much it can't be trusted.

I almost DID become a neo-Nazi. I was an edgy kid who equated psychopathy with coolness, and I was a member of online extreme metal communities. I found a single logical flaw in the (otherwise appealing to my edgy stupid nature) belief system I was considering, and my stupid brain threw out the whole thing. For the wrong reasons, of course, as I learned much later, because I was still an edgy little garbage pile, but I rejected it nevertheless.

You never know the answer to that question until you are faced with it. If you do end up on the right side, it might not even be for good reasons. All of it is rationalization, and rationalization is a necessary survival trait we cannot afford to turn off. Rationalization is most often a subconscious act we can't examine the processes of until it is too late.

Best not to take risks, I agree.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.

"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument.  If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting.  If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.

It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.

No, you don't owe anyone a fight, although it might be nice to see some of your "Holy Rage" in action.

But even if it were just a matter of opinion, replying to a well-thought post with "you are entitled to your opinion" is a pathetic cop-out.  Better to clarify your ideas, or even not respond at all.

[Con-troll]

You seem to think that there's some sort of distinct entity inside you, which is angry from being imprisoned.  This is a false extension of the analogy.  You have multiple internal motivating forces, but there is only one you.  Some of your motivating forces should not be given free play.  Refusing to give them free play does not make some "inner beast" angrier than it would be otherwise.

I was thinking about the duality between the part of us which is still just another one of the great apes and what makes us human. The difference seems to be a bit of brain, complex enough vocal cords, and tons of culture stacked on top. You know the sort of culture which from the beginning has worked to suppress most of the stuff the Ape likes to do. Yeah, violence, but also things like sex, caring for people, and eating. Suppressed are also things more unique to the humans but not unprecedented in animals. Hell, soon an ability to shit will be a commodified luxury.

That makes lots of humans unhappy. They are forced to put 99% of themselves in a cage to be "civilized" and can't even burst out in a violent rage to blow steam, like every rational animal would tend to do when spred so thin, because of the dire concequenses the society would impose on you.

What I'm getting at is that the animal part, the instinct, shouldn't be blamed for horrific acts humans commit. The Ape isn't capable of connecting a group of people to a terrorist attack that happened on the other side of the globe, when none of the participants were present, and decide it's a logical act to shoot them. No, that is a human mind extrapolating from data that has been fed to them. That's just human, nothing holy or primal in that.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.

Watch out we've got a stale and overworked meme over here!

I'm so hurt. 

[The Wizard Joseph]

I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.

"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument.  If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting.  If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.

It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.

No, you don't owe anyone a fight, although it might be nice to see some of your "Holy Rage" in action.

But even if it were just a matter of opinion, replying to a well-thought post with "you are entitled to your opinion" is a pathetic cop-out.  Better to clarify your ideas, or even not respond at all.

How exactly would you like to see the holy rage in action on an internet forum?

Alas I am overwhelmed by your trolling! You have defeated me!

[Doktor Howl]

I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.

How do you personally embrace it?  Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing.  But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it?  Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.

Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?

I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.

[Doktor Howl]

You will not lose your cool or go out of control if you have embraced and befriended The Holy Rage.

You will bite, and kick, and claw!! You will howl like a Lunatic and throw whatever comes to hand!! You will gouge eyes and crush genitals!! You will bash a head into the concrete over and over until the white meat shows!!

I find it difficult to reconcile the above two statements.  I don't really see myself throwing random objects or bashing heads repeatedly unless I'd lost control.  Maybe this Holy Rage thing isn't for me.

If you have never hurled a dead javalina into the neighbor's yard, I feel for you son

I got 99 problems but impulse control ain't one.

[chaotic neutral observer]

How exactly would you like to see the holy rage in action on an internet forum?

Surprise me.

Alas I am overwhelmed by your trolling! You have defeated me!

Well, that was anti-climactic.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.

How do you personally embrace it?  Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing.  But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it?  Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.

Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?

I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.

I want to get a better understanding of the practical applications of this particular type of rage, with concrete examples.  So far, no satisfactory examples have been presented.

Also, the weather's improving, my blood is up, and I felt like picking a fight.  Once The Wizard stops replying to me, I'll probably get bored, and start scribbling some half-thought-out ideas in Apple Talk, or something.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.

She.

[Cramulus]

Just to be clear, I think Joseph is a great guy. Please read this with a tone of sympathetic concern.


To state plainly what concerned me about the OP: it glorified horrific violence, and said that the 'self who is curbstomping somebody to death' is the "true self", and should be embraced --- but there was no talk about finding the right target, or being discerning in how/when you use that rage. It reccommended visualizing somebody that upset me as I go apeshit on a mattress with a baseball bat.

Joseph didn't say "imagine beating up a nazi", he said "imagine beating up somebody that upset you."

And that's a really dark thought. Because a lot of people have made me angry, and I've definitely had the impulse to slash their tires.  Inside me, the animal parts want their blood. It would have made me feel euphoric. But when I've calmed down, I know that rage was not the correct tool.

I grimace at the suggestion that it would have been "holy" to go ruin my enemies day in some way. The way it's stated in the OP, I can't distinguish that suggestion from advice that horrible people give in to every single day. I really don't want to live in a world where everybody behaves like that. Personally, I'm proud of myself for moderating the beast, not giving in, not slashing those tires. I acted correctly, despite a loud voice inside me saying WAR WAR WAR.

That's what I was saying about the 'true self' not being the animal inside of us, but the human who can master those animalistic parts of us, reconcile them with the whole being. The animal is one of the selves. Sometimes you've gotta let it lead, but a lot of the time you have to tell it "time out".

This is different than denying the animal completely. The example Joseph gave, of the victim lashing out against attackers, is an example of rage applied in a survival moment. It's the right tool for that specific situation. In that situation, you don't have to worry about misapplying rage--your life is literally in jeopardy, and in that context, there is only black and white. The animal behaves correctly there, because it only sees in black and white.


I don't trust myself to only use rage correctly--therefore I can't trust others with it. My attitude towards my own rage is caution. To embrace it inevitably means hurting others, as well as myself.

[altered]

Just to be clear, I think Joseph is a great guy. Please read this with a tone of sympathetic concern.


To state plainly what concerned me about the OP: it glorified horrific violence, and said that the 'self who is curbstomping somebody to death' is the "true self", and should be embraced --- but there was no talk about finding the right target, or being discerning in how/when you use that rage. It reccommended visualizing somebody that upset me as I go apeshit on a mattress with a baseball bat.

Joseph didn't say "imagine beating up a nazi", he said "imagine beating up somebody that upset you."

And that's a really dark thought. Because a lot of people have made me angry, and I've definitely had the impulse to slash their tires.  Inside me, the animal parts want their blood. It would have made me feel euphoric. But when I've calmed down, I know that rage was not the correct tool.

I grimace at the suggestion that it would have been "holy" to go ruin my enemies day in some way. The way it's stated in the OP, I can't distinguish that suggestion from advice that horrible people give in to every single day. I really don't want to live in a world where everybody behaves like that. Personally, I'm proud of myself for moderating the beast, not giving in, not slashing those tires. I acted correctly, despite a loud voice inside me saying WAR WAR WAR.

That's what I was saying about the 'true self' not being the animal inside of us, but the human who can master those animalistic parts of us, reconcile them with the whole being. The animal is one of the selves. Sometimes you've gotta let it lead, but a lot of the time you have to tell it "time out".

This is different than denying the animal completely. The example Joseph gave, of the victim lashing out against attackers, is an example of rage applied in a survival moment. It's the right tool for that specific situation. In that situation, you don't have to worry about misapplying rage--your life is literally in jeopardy, and in that context, there is only black and white. The animal behaves correctly there, because it only sees in black and white.


I don't trust myself to only use rage correctly--therefore I can't trust others with it. My attitude towards my own rage is caution. To embrace it inevitably means hurting others, as well as myself.

Exactly all of this.

[The Wizard Joseph]

OP came out how it came out. I understand your concerns, but it was a rant not an ethical treatise.

Tell you what I'll do a write-up on what I think the ethics of letting out The Holy Rage are when I get a chance later.