Author Topic: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?  (Read 2816 times)

Cain

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 07:21:57 pm »
Johnny, you appear to be under the misapprehension that a) Fascism and neo-Nazism are just variants of totalitarianism with distinct characterstics, as opposed to actual political ideologies and programs with strong thematic and philosophical similarities and b) that there are not clear links between today's neofascist organisations and those that were founded in the interwar period.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2019, 08:20:23 pm »

I was more elaborating on addressing the OP than to the other subsequent responses, in the sense that despite what Trump says and does, he is not a Nazi, and despite American tendencies against Nazism, it does not equate with them not liking the centralization and abuse of power.

And yes, my understanding is far from an expert opinion, which is why i appreciate nullifieds point on semantics.

A) From what ive read which can be wrong, the main category is authoritarianism, and a subset of authoritarianism would be totalitarianism, subset in which fascism, nazism and communism fit into.

B) Its not that, its just that "nazi" and "fascist" to me seem like they are thrown around too easily as a tag, and subsequently when its used appropiately it just gets dismissed as an exaggeration.

But i still think i make good points, i need to review my definition of "fascist", but Trump is not a "nazi" and if you show me that he actually is ill eat my words and my shirt alongside them.
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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 06:49:06 am »
Please read Umberto Ecoís Ur-Fascism before you talk about Fascism as if it was just Mussolini.

Itís not that youíre entirely wrong, itís that youíre confusing two similar but distinct terms. Like talking about how democracy hasnít existed since the Roman Empire destroyed the power of the Greek city-states, because Athens was the only Democracy. Itís not entirely wrong, but it misses the point, hard.

In the same way, neo-Nazis are in fact not Nazis if you specifically use Nazis to refer to the members of the NSDAP. But they are no different in how they work or their beliefs than the NSDAPís membership, so calling them Nazis isnít really wrong either.

The only reason Iím making a big deal out of this is that modern fascists and Nazis have made a whole cottage industry out of semantic nitpicking of that very form. To the point that 9 times out of 10, someone who says there arenít Nazis anymore probably agrees with the Nazis we have now in some way. Itís a dog whistle, of sorts, and you are now aware of both why it is wrong, and why it is worth correcting.

Doesn't matter if they say they aren't actual Nazis if they are actual Nazis.  The only difference is they don't have the snappy Hugo Boss uniforms.

So they're just low rent Nazis.  Shabby.
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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 06:49:56 am »

I was more elaborating on addressing the OP than to the other subsequent responses, in the sense that despite what Trump says and does, he is not a Nazi, and despite American tendencies against Nazism, it does not equate with them not liking the centralization and abuse of power.


If they rant at the podium and hurl people into concentration camps, I don't see any actual fundamental difference.
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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 05:41:28 am »
I think modern Nazis are more the result of

"Everyone I don't like is a racist.
Hitler, a known Nazi, was a racist. 
Racists are like Hitler. 
Racists are Nazis. 
Everyone I don't like is a Nazi."

Try talking with some self described nazis, they aren't all that hard to find.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 05:42:57 am »
I think modern Nazis are more the result of

"Everyone I don't like is a racist.
Hitler, a known Nazi, was a racist. 
Racists are like Hitler. 
Racists are Nazis. 
Everyone I don't like is a Nazi."

Try talking with some self described nazis, they aren't all that hard to find.

You can't swing a fucking dead cat without hitting two Nazis and an apologist.  So three Nazis.
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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 06:23:28 pm »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

I've been following Teri Kanefield on twitter and she has some pretty interesting observations in this arena. I haven't yet read Paxton's book, but Kanefield's take in this thread is basically the same thing.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2019, 10:09:39 pm »
Isn't it small 'n' nazi for the shitbags we have running around now, and capital 'N' for the historical Nazi Party?


ETA: Not being a pedant. It's just handy for arguments where somebody tries to say Trump (or whoever) is "not a Nazi".
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:12:20 pm by kiss my axe »
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Cain

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 11:37:22 am »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

There's definitely a strong argument for it, though the argument is stronger for the second Klan (the 1915 version) than the first IMO.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2019, 04:53:36 am »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

There's definitely a strong argument for it, though the argument is stronger for the second Klan (the 1915 version) than the first IMO.

Sorry that's the one he means as well.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2019, 04:56:21 am »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

There's definitely a strong argument for it, though the argument is stronger for the second Klan (the 1915 version) than the first IMO.

Sorry that's the one he means as well.

in Kanefield's threads, she talks about how trump and the like want to take america back to the days pre-new deal when rich white dudes could make out like robber barons.

ETA: She also mentions how this was americas's second's oligarcy--slavery being the first. I think that was maybe another book reference...but anyway
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 04:59:32 am by Bu☆ns »

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2019, 11:46:41 am »
Yes, the Gilded Age. Not a "Golden Age", but a veneer of gold on pure-D shit. Like everything else Trump admires.
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Cain

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2019, 03:01:24 pm »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

There's definitely a strong argument for it, though the argument is stronger for the second Klan (the 1915 version) than the first IMO.

Sorry that's the one he means as well.

Hah, it's obviously been too long since I read Paxton then. I don't know as much about the first Klan I will admit, but my impression is that it's more "French aristocratic reactionary", which certainly fed into the development of fascism, but lacks certain key components.

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2019, 12:39:10 am »
Yes, the Gilded Age. Not a "Golden Age", but a veneer of gold on pure-D shit. Like everything else Trump admires.

pretty much! someone (a comedian i forget who) said that trump is like not a real rich person. That he is like a homeless person's idea of a rich person--gold everywhere, etc

ETA:

Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

There's definitely a strong argument for it, though the argument is stronger for the second Klan (the 1915 version) than the first IMO.

Sorry that's the one he means as well.

Hah, it's obviously been too long since I read Paxton then. I don't know as much about the first Klan I will admit, but my impression is that it's more "French aristocratic reactionary", which certainly fed into the development of fascism, but lacks certain key components.

I haven't actually read Anatomy of Fascism (although it's in my queue), i was sourcing this from this blog here:
 
5/ Income inequality opened between business tycoons and laborers, who worked long hours in dangerous jobs at poverty wages. Notice: When slaveowners had power, they voted to consolidate their power. Now industrialists did the same. Democracy tends to slide to oligarchy

6/States began segregating blacks & making it harder for them to vote (helped by the KKK) From Paxton: The worldís first fascist group was the KKK. The GOP, the party of industry and equality, split into to factions: The conservative pro-Industry part and liberal pro-labor part.

7/ When SCOTUS upheld segregation and voter restrictions on blacks, the GOP dropped racial equality and labor issues from its platform and became the conservative party. By 1920, Democratic Party base consisted of Southern whites, rural America, and laborers.

and

The Ku Klux Klan was authoritarian. Paxton argues that fascism didnít begin in Italy; it began in America, with the KKK, who even had a kind of uniform and demonized enemy.

Fascism happens when people get uncomfortable with too much democracy. Democracy naturally leads to diversity, which triggers a fascist backlash. The KKK arose from new rights for African Americans.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 12:41:55 am by Bu☆ns »

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2019, 12:49:14 am »
At any rate i thought it was a pretty interesting way to explain in part why things are moving toward the far-right in Europe, US, and so on. And more generally--why the appeal toward authoritarianism in the first place?


ETA: Also, i guess from reading the second quote above, Paxton *does* mean the first kkk. maybe i should just look up the book lol
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 12:54:59 am by Bu☆ns »