Author Topic: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?  (Read 381 times)

Cain

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 07:21:57 pm »
Johnny, you appear to be under the misapprehension that a) Fascism and neo-Nazism are just variants of totalitarianism with distinct characterstics, as opposed to actual political ideologies and programs with strong thematic and philosophical similarities and b) that there are not clear links between today's neofascist organisations and those that were founded in the interwar period.

The Johnny

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2019, 08:20:23 pm »

I was more elaborating on addressing the OP than to the other subsequent responses, in the sense that despite what Trump says and does, he is not a Nazi, and despite American tendencies against Nazism, it does not equate with them not liking the centralization and abuse of power.

And yes, my understanding is far from an expert opinion, which is why i appreciate nullifieds point on semantics.

A) From what ive read which can be wrong, the main category is authoritarianism, and a subset of authoritarianism would be totalitarianism, subset in which fascism, nazism and communism fit into.

B) Its not that, its just that "nazi" and "fascist" to me seem like they are thrown around too easily as a tag, and subsequently when its used appropiately it just gets dismissed as an exaggeration.

But i still think i make good points, i need to review my definition of "fascist", but Trump is not a "nazi" and if you show me that he actually is ill eat my words and my shirt alongside them.

Doktor Howl

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 06:49:06 am »
Please read Umberto Ecoís Ur-Fascism before you talk about Fascism as if it was just Mussolini.

Itís not that youíre entirely wrong, itís that youíre confusing two similar but distinct terms. Like talking about how democracy hasnít existed since the Roman Empire destroyed the power of the Greek city-states, because Athens was the only Democracy. Itís not entirely wrong, but it misses the point, hard.

In the same way, neo-Nazis are in fact not Nazis if you specifically use Nazis to refer to the members of the NSDAP. But they are no different in how they work or their beliefs than the NSDAPís membership, so calling them Nazis isnít really wrong either.

The only reason Iím making a big deal out of this is that modern fascists and Nazis have made a whole cottage industry out of semantic nitpicking of that very form. To the point that 9 times out of 10, someone who says there arenít Nazis anymore probably agrees with the Nazis we have now in some way. Itís a dog whistle, of sorts, and you are now aware of both why it is wrong, and why it is worth correcting.

Doesn't matter if they say they aren't actual Nazis if they are actual Nazis.  The only difference is they don't have the snappy Hugo Boss uniforms.

So they're just low rent Nazis.  Shabby.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 06:49:56 am »

I was more elaborating on addressing the OP than to the other subsequent responses, in the sense that despite what Trump says and does, he is not a Nazi, and despite American tendencies against Nazism, it does not equate with them not liking the centralization and abuse of power.


If they rant at the podium and hurl people into concentration camps, I don't see any actual fundamental difference.
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Pergamos

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 05:41:28 am »
I think modern Nazis are more the result of

"Everyone I don't like is a racist.
Hitler, a known Nazi, was a racist. 
Racists are like Hitler. 
Racists are Nazis. 
Everyone I don't like is a Nazi."

Try talking with some self described nazis, they aren't all that hard to find.

Doktor Howl

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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 05:42:57 am »
I think modern Nazis are more the result of

"Everyone I don't like is a racist.
Hitler, a known Nazi, was a racist. 
Racists are like Hitler. 
Racists are Nazis. 
Everyone I don't like is a Nazi."

Try talking with some self described nazis, they aren't all that hard to find.

You can't swing a fucking dead cat without hitting two Nazis and an apologist.  So three Nazis.
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Re: nazis - and actual PEOPLE: WTF happened?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 06:23:28 pm »
Robert Paxton in Anatomy of Fascism argues that the Ku Klux Klan were the first fascist organization.

I've been following Teri Kanefield on twitter and she has some pretty interesting observations in this arena. I haven't yet read Paxton's book, but Kanefield's take in this thread is basically the same thing.