## News:

Look at the world emptily, and it will gladly return the favor.

## The Functionality of the Black Iron Prison

Started by Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard, January 07, 2020, 01:41:30 PM

#### Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Imagine time as a solid object.

Imagine this solid object was created by an explosion of matter that turned into a web-like block of strands. If you repeated this explosion, the results would be strands that were in different locations than the last time. Each explosion is completely unpredictable.

Imagine the multiverse as every possible explosion of matter in this form. Each strand is a life.

Our four-dimensional unit is one particular result; time is simply us moving through those strands from the center of the explosion to the outer perimeter. We might not know what direction is coming next, but the way the strand moves is already set in stone.

But consider for a moment, that we live in a kind of Twilight Zone, where each one of us moving through those strands is a free-willed person. Everything is fine and dandy as long as our decisions go along with the route. But the moment we start trying to think outside the box, so to speak, we're going to be met with failure and massive amounts of almost inexplicable resistance from the world around us, because no matter how hard we try, we can't deviate from the path of the strand.

That's the Black Iron Prison.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

#### Cramulus

in this metaphor, what does it mean to 'go along with the route'? What is 'the path of the strand'?

#### Cramulus

Correct me if I've got it twisted -- are you saying

that the universe is deterministic
except for human decisions
which alter the predestined sequence of events,
and that triggers some force ("the black iron prison") to steer things back towards the "original" outcome?

#### chaotic neutral observer

If everything is preordained, then your apparent resistance to the preordained is also preordained.

What you perceive as free will is an artifact of your brain being able to monitor itself, but not being able to predict its own actions.  I'm not convinced it is a useful concept.  How would you measure whether any given entity had free will or not?  If you can't tell the difference, why bother with the distinction?
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

#### Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

I just told you that the pathway is preordained and your thinking isn't. It's like playing a video game where if you're walking down a hallway and the hallway turns right, you suddenly feel like going left. What happens? You walk into a wall.

A really good analogy is a great game called The Stanley Parable.

"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

#### Cramulus

In this metaphor, the black iron prison is an external force--like a higher power--which resists human decisions?

Do all decisions meet resistance? If not, what is the difference between them?

What does this mean for us decision makers?

#### Doktor Howl

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 07, 2020, 01:41:30 PM

But consider for a moment, that we live in a kind of Twilight Zone, where each one of us moving through those strands is a free-willed person. Everything is fine and dandy as long as our decisions go along with the route. But the moment we start trying to think outside the box, so to speak, we're going to be met with failure and massive amounts of almost inexplicable resistance from the world around us, because no matter how hard we try, we can't deviate from the path of the strand.

That's one explanation.

The other is that the gods are a pack of pricks who get upset when their model train jumps the tracks.
Molon Lube

#### Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

The Black Iron Prison, in this idea, is a construct, perhaps with some semblance of a force that emanates from it.

Decisions that "go along with" the program don't meet resistance. You "feel" like you made the right choice.

If you suddenly try to actually stop and change things - which is rare, probably - then you're going to get literally any resistance possible. Try to tell another human being about this sort of thing in one of these moments, and they'll come up with some dumb line that makes almost no sense. They'll just say shit like "this makes me uncomfortable, goodbye" and they'll disengage. Completely. Because they're not real. They're just part of the program. And the program needs you to play along.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

#### Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 07, 2020, 02:58:00 PM
The other is that the gods are a pack of pricks who get upset when their model train jumps the tracks.

I actually don't disagree with this and I think it's basically the same idea, just a different way of putting it.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

#### Doktor Howl

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 07, 2020, 03:00:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 07, 2020, 02:58:00 PM
The other is that the gods are a pack of pricks who get upset when their model train jumps the tracks.

I actually don't disagree with this and I think it's basically the same idea, just a different way of putting it.

I only prefer my model because I can't get revenge on an uncaring void.  Getting revenge on a few supernatural arse biscuits might be possible.
Molon Lube

#### chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 07, 2020, 02:40:24 PM
I just told you that the pathway is preordained and your thinking isn't.
Why should the processes underlying my brain function be distinct from every other physical process in the universe?  There's nothing magical about the human brain.

You're not outside this game, you're stuck in it with the rest of us.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

#### Doktor Howl

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 07, 2020, 03:24:11 PM
Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 07, 2020, 02:40:24 PM
I just told you that the pathway is preordained and your thinking isn't.
Why should the processes underlying my brain function be distinct from every other physical process in the universe?  There's nothing magical about the human brain.

You're not outside this game, you're stuck in it with the rest of us.

Pretty sure that free will wouldn't be a concern if events are preordained.  It would be like watching a movie for the 5th time, except it's so boring you don't actually ever remember any details.

The universe as Gigli.
Molon Lube

#### Faust

#12
We were taught about virtual particle annihilation (and separation) where charges pop in and out.
From a classical matter perspective the universe could be deterministic (everything can be extrapolated out from the initial bang as a sequence of interactions from the start to the heat death).
If random white noise even of minuscule energy levels are introduced you have a random/pseudorandom effect and the physical sequence is no longer entirely deterministic
Sleepless nights at the chateau

#### Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 07, 2020, 03:24:11 PM
There's nothing magical about the human brain.

Prove it.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

#### Doktor Howl

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 07, 2020, 04:05:10 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 07, 2020, 03:24:11 PM
There's nothing magical about the human brain.

Prove it.

Dude, I didn't expect you, of all people, to jump on the anti-rationalism train.
Molon Lube