half-baked political rant

[Chaplin_Sinatra_Fonzarell]

I feel sort of out of place with anyone on my stance on gun control. I think people who want guns should have them, so liberals won't accept me. I think the NRA and the majority of gun enthusiasts are bourgeoisies who want guns to protect their private property with force or to blow the brains out of animals for fun, so I'd feel weird conspiring with them to demand the right to bear arms. Most Anarcho-Communists assume that in a hypothetical Anarchist system, guns wouldn't exist and we'd all shoot flowers at each other. Anarcho-Capitalists, I can't get with either. (Which is nothing new) For the record, I'm of the opinion that a laissez-fair/minarchist/night watchman/Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist/objectivist/whatever-the-fuck-they're-calling-it now state would, in general be a hellhole. Authority and government would be eliminated, but there would be no one to keep tabs of corporations. They'd just annex all of the property they could control with the resources they'd develop, and by hiring forces, they'd just become new states. Really, part of me thinks Anarcho-Capitalism is oxymoronic. What's the difference between a state and a corporation? An Anarcho-Capitalist state with absolutely no control on weapons would just be Wal-Mart with nuclear bombs.

So basically, I'm stuck. Another thing that bothers me about this issue is when right-wing ideologues are like "OMG WE MUST PROTECT THE 2ND AMENDMENT! LIBERALS WANT TO TAKE IT AWAY ONOS!" I hate to break it to you, but your second amendment rights were violated a long time ago.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

In other words, we get all the weapons and militias we want to defend ourselves from the government if it ever becomes un-free. (which it has, and how) If you think a bunch of paranoid Leftist survivalist rednecks can successfully defend themselves from the U.S. government with sawed-off shotguns and military fatigues, you're free to live in that reality. We will never have an uninfringed right to keep and bear Arms and regulate a militia to keep the state in check unless we are legally allowed to build nuclear bombs. That's right. The U.S. government has 10,000 nuclear bombs, and unless they let you build atomic weaponry in your cellar, you don't have a 2nd amendment to speak of.

Now, of course, I'm all for nuclear disarmament. In theory. But as long as America, Russia, China, France, and Britain get them, I should be able to get some weapons-grade uranium at Wal-Mart with a successful background check and start building in my garage. While I'm at it, I want some saran gas. And komodo dragons to do my bidding.

[Zurtok Khan]

Pfft.  Give me a few shotguns, many more boxes of bullets, and let me at any fuckers in the military that want to invade my private land.

Gun control = Worthless bull shit

[Chaplin_Sinatra_Fonzarell]

Isn't that basically what I said?

I was just being realistic and pointing out that if one had to ward off the U.S. government, one would need a little more than just a moderate to large sized stockpile of guns to last more than a week.

[Zurtok Khan]

I was agreeing with you actually....

WACO ALL THE WAY!

Except with us it would be...

DISCO ALL THE WAY!

[Cain]

Sounds like reality came up and caught up on theory. I have to say I mostly agree with those stances personally.  I always though anarcho-captialism was more likely anarcho-syndacylism or whatever, simply because of their global nature, resources and connections.

As for the 2nd Ammendment, again, I agree to a degree.  Yes, no militia stands a chance against a modern army.  Even a 3 million strong, well motivated and trained light infantry cannot hope to stand against a military force which inlcudes tanks, helicopters, bombers and a very good SigInt network (which the US has, Human Intelligence is another matter).

However, at least it means you are not totally helpless. Over here, if I am attaked by an armed person, I either have to be extremely trusting in my ability to fuck them up (which I have had to, once or twice) or I have to wait for the police, who have an average arrival time of 20 odd minutes.  It still gives you a bit of self-reliability.

Again with nukes, I agree.  You can't turn back the clock and I wouldnt trust any other country to keep to a deal to disarm.

[Chaplin_Sinatra_Fonzarell]

But when the policemen get there they can beat him with sticks!

[Cain]

Or the can cower in the patrol car until someone collapses and arrest them while the others run away, which is more likely.

[East Coast Hustle]

Stop!

or I'll say "Stop!" again!

[Ghost In The Machine]

As for the 2nd Ammendment, again, I agree to a degree.  Yes, no militia stands a chance against a modern army.

Tell that to the Iraqis.

[Cain]

As for the 2nd Ammendment, again, I agree to a degree.  Yes, no militia stands a chance against a modern army.

Tell that to the Iraqis.

Yes, but thats Iraq. In the states, they could unleash a bloodbath like nothing in Iraq.  They are working from a position of strength and have the support they need from the populace.. In Iraq, the factors are highly different.

[Ghost In The Machine]

As for the 2nd Ammendment, again, I agree to a degree.  Yes, no militia stands a chance against a modern army.

Tell that to the Iraqis.

Yes, but thats Iraq. In the states, they could unleash a bloodbath like nothing in Iraq.  They are working from a position of strength and have the support they need from the populace.. In Iraq, the factors are highly different.

Yep.  And if the founders thought like you (when they took on the world's most powerful army), Americans would still be crumpet-munching limeys.

Unless the US military is willing to wipe out the entire population, an insurrection has a pretty good shot.

However, all of this is moot, because Americans are too busy watching American Idol to actually DO anything.

[Cain]

We'll see.  The War of Revolution only managed to succeed because a huge French professional army saved your asses.  

Their resources (manpower, weaponry, intelligence, propaganda, logistics, and the willingness to engage in total war) are far too vast, and their power structures are firmly entrenched. 'They' can take whatever steps are necessary (tanks, helicopter gun ships, ultrasonic, laser blinders, nerve gas, bio weapons, tac-nukes, etc.) to quell a domestic disturbance during a state of emergency (and will be free to either deny, or fail to disclose, the methodology used), and no mere "light infantry" could hope to withstand such an onslaught. The only circumstances by which such a mass uprising could have any small chance of success would be immediately following the apocalyptic devastation of a possible Third World War.

[Ghost In The Machine]

We'll see.  The War of Revolution only managed to succeed because a huge French professional army saved your asses.  

Um, no, the French only sent troops when it became apparent that the colonists could win.

They shortened the war, they didn't decide it.

[East Coast Hustle]

if you wanted to pull off a sucessful insurrection in America, you'd need to join the military (as an officer) and spend a few years cultivating a division-sized force that was loyal to you. If you spent 8 or 10 years getting promoted and cultivating such a following until you had a large enough force to sucessfully take and hold a major city, you might have a shot.

insurrection by hillbillies and angry kids = likely to turn very bloody very quickly

[Cain]

We'll see.  The War of Revolution only managed to succeed because a huge French professional army saved your asses.  

Um, no, the French only sent troops when it became apparent that the colonists could win.

They shortened the war, they didn't decide it.

Partly true.  they did pour in the men and resources after the colonists won at Saratoga, but to be honest you'd never have got near Yorktown if it wasn't for massive French aid.  The French army and navy won Yorktown for you. Americans didn't have the materiel or the training to mount a combined operation like that, with naval blockade and land siege. It was the French artillery forces and military engineers who ran the siege, and at sea it was a French admiral, de Grasse, who kicked the shit out of the British navy when they tried to break the siege.