Author Topic: Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence  (Read 25896 times)

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33482
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2005, 03:40:11 pm »
I can't argue with that.  But the basics do not change.  Convicted of unwanted sex with a 16 year old.  I've always claimed he had unwanted sex with the girl I just wasn't very clear with my recounting of the interview in the beginning.  Fatherhood can make one tired and vague sometimes.  

Look, I can see where you are coming from.  And I understand why you think what you think.  There is some grey area when it comes to sexual relations involving older teenagers.  However, in my opinion, there is no grey area when she says no.  The bottom line is that a guy in his thirties doesn't have to have sex with someone who is legally immature to engage in sexual relations.  Just step away from the hottie.  There are plenty who ARE legal.  

If this guy had come on and said "I got railroaded, she said yes and now look at my life!"  I'm on your team.  That, I can say without a doubt, was not the case.  But that wasn't the set-up.  I apologize for my vaguery.  I shall consume much caffeine to clear that up.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62162
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2005, 04:00:04 pm »
At this point, you can't recall the interview clearly, and you can't find a link to the interview, so we have no idea what the "facts" are.

And, in legal jargon, statuatory rape (that is, sexual conduct with a minor, consentual or not) is "unwanted" by definition.  It doesn't matter in a court of law how she feels.

And since we have no transcript, we cannot know how she feels.

So, what are we left with?

You feel that forced sex with a minor should be punishable by the modern equivalent of a permanent Scarlet Letter.

I'm not too sure you're going to find too many people to argue against that.  But I will say I'm uncomfortable with the concept of an unredeemable offence.

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33482
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2005, 04:09:14 pm »
That's fine.  It you had started this thread with the same vagueness that I did I'd probably feel the same way.  I won't argue that.  I was simply spouting or ranting.  

But I will, unapologetically, say that yes there are some offences for which I feel a "scarlet letter" isn't a bad thing.  Perhaps it's a medieval philosophy that I hold.  And I respect that it is one that you do not hold.  I have this cute little innocent angel who runs around carefree in my home.  I just think of something like that happening to her and then the jerk complaining about not being able to buy a bigger house and it just makes me want to jump through the TV and slap some sense into him with a nail-ridden 2x4.  

If there was a guy like that living in my neighborhood I would want to know about it.  I want to have whatever I can at my disposal so that I can protect my family.  That is what is most important to me.  These are the not-so-rose colored glasses that tint my vision.  I will put that out there, unashamedly and without remorse.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bella

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15978
    • View Profile
    • Eris Bar and Grill
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2005, 04:28:51 pm »
Quote from: LMNO

You feel that forced sex with a minor should be punishable by the modern equivalent of a permanent Scarlet Letter.

I'm not too sure you're going to find too many people to argue against that.  But I will say I'm uncomfortable with the concept of an unredeemable offence.

I did a bit more research last night and found out that, at least as far as level 1 offenders go, it's not considered an unredeemable offense. At the time of sentencing, the court determines the severity of the crime based on very complicated sentencing guidelines. These guidelines take into account the wishes of the victim and her family, letters of support and recommendation from friends and family of the defendant, their prior history, or lack of history, with the court system, etc. Probation conducts an investigation and makes their recommendation to the court. So do the prosecution and the defense attorneys. The judge looks at all of this and then makes the determination.

I was surprised to find out that under Megan's Law, there is a time limit on level 1 registration. The time spent as a registered offender is looked upon as part of the debt that has to be paid to society - much like parole. The court sentences them to so much time behind bars and then turns them loose to spend the rest of their sentence in the community. So basically, this guy will be free to live where he wants as soon as he's done the remainder of his time and completely paid his debt.

 This link takes you to the Pierce County website, but Megan's Law is a federal law, so it's the same everywhere.

http://www.westchestergov.com/ptk/MegansLaw/meganslaw2.htm

"The length of time over which an offender is registered depends upon a specific designation assigned to the offender by the Court. Level 1 and 2 sex offenders registered prior to March 11, 2002 are registered for 10 years, and level 3 offenders registered before this date are registered for life. (This life registration may be shortened by the sentencing court after an offender has been registered for a minimum of 13 years.) Sex offenders whose level designation hearings were held on or after March 11, 2002, are registered for 10 years unless they have been designated a sexual predator, a sexually violent offender, or a predicate sex offender by the sentencing court, in which case they must register for life. "

And here's an explanation of the three levels of sex offenders:

"Level 1 - These offenders present the lowest possible risk to the community and their likelihood to re-offend is considered minimal. They normally have not exhibited predatory type characteristics and most have successfully participated or are participating in approved treatment programs. Many are first time offenders.

Level 2 - These offenders present a moderate risk to the community and they have a higher likelihood of re-offending than the Level 1 offenders. They are considered a higher risk to re-offend, because of the nature of their previous crime(s) and lifestyle (drug and alcohol abuse and other criminal activity). Some have refused to participate or failed to complete approved treatment programs.

Level 3
- These offenders pose a potential high risk to the community and are a threat to re-offend if provided the opportunity. Most have prior sex crime convictions as well as other criminal convictions. Their lifestyles and choices place them in this classification. Some have predatory characteristics and may seek out victims. They may have refused or failed to complete approved treatment programs. Fewer than 3% of all registered sex offenders in Pierce County are classified as Level 3 offenders ."
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62162
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2005, 04:34:29 pm »
Well.

Sometimes a little bit of information can really clear things up.

I applaud and throw bejeweled accolades at your research, Bella.


::kisses::

Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 8535
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2005, 04:48:45 pm »
OK, here is the other thing, I got this from a friend of mine who works in law enforcement.  These are the different levels for sex offenses.

1st Degree Penetration, lots of different circumstances.

2nd Degree Inappropriate touching, lots of different circumstances.

3rd Degree Penetration, lots of different circumstances.

4th Degree Inappropriate touching, lots of different circumstances.

You'll notice that 1 and 3 have penetraion, 2 and 4 do not.  Unlike other crimes, this is not a scale, where 1 is worse than 2 is worse than 3 is worse than 4 or the other way either.  If you really want all the gory details, click the following link.

http://www.msu.edu/~sdclub/resources/criminal%20code.doc

ps I haven't had a chance to go through the link Bella just posted. :wink:

edit:  Levels are different than the charges, hhmmmm.....this just gets more confusing.

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33482
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2005, 04:48:57 pm »
So in ten years or less the guy will lose his scarlet letter and as long as he stays a good joe he'll be free to move around as he pleases.  That seems reasonable for a first offense.  He should feel fortunate that it will not be a lifelong stigma for him.  So again, I say to him, quit your whining and just deal with it.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bella

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15978
    • View Profile
    • Eris Bar and Grill
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2005, 04:59:33 pm »
Quote from: LMNO
Well.

Sometimes a little bit of information can really clear things up.

I applaud and throw bejeweled accolades at your research, Bella.


::kisses::
Thank you.  :D

It was fun finding the answers, and to be honest, this was bugging me. I sat through a lot of sentencing hearings, and as a result,  found it hard to believe that what the guy on tv was saying was the whole truth. So I thought I'd dig around a little.

I think it's important to note that sex crimes are the absolute most difficult to prove. Consequently, they are the most difficult to prosecute. For a very short time, I was the victim advocate who dealt with Statutory Rape cases - until I begged them to take me off Stat Rape and give me something more fun.....like homicide. But in that short term I learned that most counties routinely refuse to prosecute Stat Rape unless the parents of the girl raise a huge stink or unless she's pregnant.

The primary reason for this is that you almost always have a "victim" who doesn't consider herself a victim and won't testify. But if you have a baby, you can prove who the father is or isn't - and that's all the proof you need. Most cases come to the attention of the DA's office when an underage girl goes in to sign up for welfare and gives them the name and personal information on the father of the child.

P.S. These cases are prosecuted mainly because the county gets a grant to prosecute them in order to keep the welfare rolls down.
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here

Bella

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15978
    • View Profile
    • Eris Bar and Grill
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2005, 05:10:03 pm »
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
edit:  Levels are different than the charges, hhmmmm.....this just gets more confusing.

Yeah, your friend was trying to offer a simplified explanation of the penal code, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the sex offender registration levels.
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here

Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 8535
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2005, 05:11:24 pm »
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of Doom
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
edit:  Levels are different than the charges, hhmmmm.....this just gets more confusing.

Yeah, your friend was trying to offer a simplified explanation of the penal code, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the sex offender registration levels.

Ah, OK, but the crime commited will have an effect on which level you end up on the registry, weird.

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62162
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2005, 05:13:12 pm »
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?
But I will, unapologetically, say that yes there are some offences for which I feel a "scarlet letter" isn't a bad thing.


Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?
So in ten years or less the guy will lose his scarlet letter and as long as he stays a good joe he'll be free to move around as he pleases.  That seems reasonable for a first offense.






[The Loudspeaker spoke up and said]

Paging CHEF.  Would CHEF please report to the thread...

[/The Loudspeaker spoke up and said]

Bella

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15978
    • View Profile
    • Eris Bar and Grill
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2005, 05:17:33 pm »
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
Quote from: SssBella, Oracle of Doom
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
edit:  Levels are different than the charges, hhmmmm.....this just gets more confusing.

Yeah, your friend was trying to offer a simplified explanation of the penal code, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the sex offender registration levels.

Ah, OK, but the crime commited will have an effect on which level you end up on the registry, weird.

It's more complicated than people think - that's all.

Here's a link to the California Penal Code section that deals with rape.

http://asucd.ucdavis.edu/organizations/other/mar/penalcode.htm

The code for Stat Rape is 261.5. Which seems fairly simple, but there are 11 sub-sections - each of them dealing with a different set of circumstances. And still, it's often hard to determine exactly which of them, if any, should be charged.
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33482
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2005, 05:38:32 pm »
Quote from: LMNO
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?
But I will, unapologetically, say that yes there are some offences for which I feel a "scarlet letter" isn't a bad thing.


Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?
So in ten years or less the guy will lose his scarlet letter and as long as he stays a good joe he'll be free to move around as he pleases.  That seems reasonable for a first offense.


I believe you are trying to exhibit a contradiction.  However you'll notice in the first quote I did not specify that a scarlet letter be permanent.  Thusly the second quote is not a contradiction of the first.  For someone who screws up, and is deemed by the state to not be a high level threat, a term of ten years with a scarlet letter is reasonable.  It's also reasonable to keep tabs on that guy for that ten year period.  I additionally approve of a permanent scarlet letter for the more dangerous offenders.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

unlike_someone

  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 991
    • View Profile
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2005, 05:49:01 pm »
It really doesn't matter if the "scarlet letter" is permanent or not. The moment someone has a picture of a sex offender, everyone will know who they are. When they lose their title... people are still going to know. If they move (and people find out where to)... there are still people out there that will feel it necessary to tell the new community about this person.
- some inertly chaotic chick

   "I don't kill flies but I like to mess with their minds. I hold them above globes. They freak out and yell, 'Whoa, I'm way too high!' " --Bruce Baum

Bella

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 15978
    • View Profile
    • Eris Bar and Grill
Get Out the Violins or A Call For Immediate Violence
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2005, 06:03:25 pm »
Information on Level 1 offenders is never given out to the public. No photos are distributed, their names aren't released, etc. The only people who know about them are law enforcement and they aren't allowed to tell.

edit: Let me rephrase that - It's against the law to give information on Level 1 offenders to the public. I can't say for certain that it's never done.
just like in a dream
you'll open your mouth to scream
and you won't make a sound

you can't believe your eyes
you can't believe your ears
you can't believe your friends
you can't believe you're here