Rant 154: The Pretty Noose

[Dags]

Dags, the past doesn't change, but that says nothing about free will. The past doesn't exist. All we have are memories and circumstantial evidence.

How the past not changing has something to do with free-will.

The past did exist

What was the future is now a part of what is referred to as the past.

Since the future inevitably becomes a part of the past; then the future once it happens can not " be different " at the moment it shifts from future to present to past.

Therefore to say I could have chosen differently is absurd. Therefore
free-will is incorrect.

That is why time has much to do with free-will; at least that aspect of it.

I could go as far to say that the future in a sense is "set" / this becomes problematic in regards to absolutes and "unexpected variables" or better yet lack of absolute knowledge of each variable and everyknown possible outcome. Prediction machinery. A deterministic universe does lead to many conclusions that are empirically testable; is the basis for the addage "nothing comes from nothing" and the conservation laws; "like causes producing like effects" and pervades our everyday lives; like keys being where they are placed; and my being able to post my sense and nonsense here and for you too.  Was my being able to read that reply "striking and amazing" or another ordinary prediction. More likely very predictable.... unless something occured to change it.

Speaking of day to day having nothing to do with it? Per your saying the past doesn't exist has nothing to do with it; How old are you? Can you choose to be another age? Without changing the past? The is another thing about how the past affects now and the future and how time has a lot to do with what is determined for us, verses what we can exercise our volition over.

I explained.... Which is something I'm apparently determined to do or at least try to do.... As in either sucessfully or not that this does have something to do about free will.

You say you have "free-will" of what kind? ... because there are many different ways of understanding it. Like the religious version which is normally something I see christians use where God couldn't make a universe and loves us and not give us free-will to choose to love him; so if you don't choose to love God; then you burn in hell; so if you don't then you reject God by your own "choice" not to believe in God and love him. I say why don't you choose the real God and his name is "Zeus". They might laugh and say that's a made up God, that's myth. Where I say so you don't believe in Zeus for the same reason I can't "choose" to believe in your God. Actually it doesn't make any sense at that point, be it the invisible pink unicorn or whatever; why don't you believe in Santa Claus; leprachaun, invisible red dragons, invisible elephants; usually the same is said; That it's not the same; but as far as I can tell it is the same; and I can't believe this nonsense over that nonsense; speaking of ridding bullshit!

So what 'free-will' do you think is right? Maybe it's ordinary volition?

I am free to act in accordence with my own interest, abilities, desires, is volition; determinism doesn't say you don't do these things. Actually it specifically states that you "will" to do these things as you are your own casual agent regarding such things.

The only difference being the familiar use of the word "choice" where scientist would say "volition".

Same thing; hell in the sense of the term "volition" some plants have "volition" where they act "turn towards the sun" in their own interest. But I didn't read that anywhere just a thought...

Fate; Fatalism - Looked at it think it's wrong. Believing fatalism is like believing if you bury your keys in the backyard; those same keys will be in the same place as where you usually set them down or hang them. IOW No matter what the future is "set".

Compromise; Compatabilism - Haven't looked into it too deeply but from what I gather is a compromise, more deterministic; but clinging to the parts that make folks happy to believe. I am still in control of my life; but; things as basically caused.

Free-Will - I could've done this or that; I could've chosen differently; "The past is flexible" -

Determinism - Your sense of "choice" is illusory / Your volition is true "your own nature" / You are as "free" as your determined to be. The future can change but it depends. All effects have a cause.

Also in the realm of responsibility; I see no contradiction; You are the only you; what you do you are responsible for; you take the credit (even though all is given you ,determined) for what you do; you take the blame *(even though all is given you,determinied) for what you do.

*determinism is a two-way street - In the dichotomy of the criminal / and the prosecution - both are determined - so both are acting out of their own volition. No get out of jail free card - determinism isn't.

Also I wrote this for me more than anything else; you hit on this or that; I could also defend nihilism regarding certain aspects of it; and existentialism? I have done a bit of digging into that one also.

So I'll just end it here if you like. With my commentary. Because after this or that and the other; I'm getting a sense that you don't want to rationalize what your defending by saying "free-will"

I have looked over various things regarding this and think determinism is the truest of those I've looked into also the more I look into it the more I understand it; but I think it's widely misunderstood; namely in regards to thinking determinism has anything to do with "fate".

When someone says " fate sucks I swear it" ; it's the past they are more than likely considering; the past is "fate"; the future isn't. Where you place the keys is where they will be; absent any tomfoolery.-heh

- Dags

[eighteen buddha strike]

Nihilism is just a hobby.

Anyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that, too much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time, and while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.

What I get from the rant is Hugh trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way. If you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.

[really big letters][DOOMED[/really big letters]


[echo]doomed[/echo]

[Zurtok Khan]

Very nice, Hugh, you pretty accurately described what I think.  *puts on tin foil hat* no more of that.

As usual, nice rant.


Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know."  Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.

It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"

Mmmmmm, I love this LMNO.  I loves it lots.

[Dags]

Nihilism is just a hobby.

Unless your getting paid I'd say so.

Anyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that

Easy for you to say. Harder to avoid when you come from your past and need to consider the past when planning for the future.

too much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time

No one can leave the present-time. If they could then that'd be time traveling you know?

and while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.

This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected.

What I get from the rant is Death to Poultry trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way.

I read something different. It was all the stuff that's not free-will is stupid and your stupid to think otherwise? Then something about nihilism and existentialism being stupid too. Plus this part about determinism and free-will is not everything and who says it was? But since your bringing it up.

If you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.

Doomed people see the world through there doomed goggles. Not much
different than God's people seeing the world through God goggles. I got
my determinism goggles on right now! To argue against rant 15X

Looking at the big picture I don't see a clockwork universe. I think there is a lot the we don't know; Newtonian physics is dead; Hell Einsteins relativity is that dead now? I still don't think quantum theories prove indeterminism because at that level things aren't exactly elegant more at strange physics.

Yet the big picture the way I see it goes something like this; I just like to philosophize sometimes. I don't think it's a fatal waste of my time. I gave up being a christian; never heard of philosophy before then. I'm now an atheist. Something none of my family can make a claim to be. I have since turning my life away from Jesus increased my comfort in living ten fold. My comfort in dying 100 fold.

The big picture is what you think it is - what's important - to me may not be important to you - but you only have to look around to see that saying - somewhere there are 1 billion chinamen that couldn't care less? Someone know the quote? anyways  - something like that.

I know I don't give a fuck neither. I know what's important to me and that's doing whatever I think is important but realizing that not everybody else and a lot of other people will think I'm fucking retarded for doing it.

Like screwing it up and saying existenialism instead of essentialism which I know nothing about at this time. Yet I went back and looked again since my reading of it is no longer fresh on my memory and I quote.

Huğh:::Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb.

See to Huğh I'm dumb. Yet I'm using words almost like they "mean" something, the rants 15X of them now? What do they mean then? I would ask? Are they not supposed to mean anything?

Maybe the answer is soundgarden. I don't know you'd have to ask him.

The big picture the big screen fliiping the channel to another station. THX. Surround. Something appears on the screen.....

You know waht - I had fun doing it - without changing.

- Dags

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

,./

[eighteen buddha strike]

Holy shit. As much as I loathe the concept of taking off my gloves and engaging it some good ol' fashioned sophism, it might be necessary. Even if it makes me feel dirty, and it does, sometimes things just have to come to blows.

Nihilism is just a hobby.

Unless your getting paid I'd say so.

Yes!

Anyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that

Easy for you to say. Harder to avoid when you come from your past and need to consider the past when planning for the future.

Wait a second...

So wait, I make a point about the intangible nature of the past and the future, and you completely derail me with some veiled accusation of being apathetic or irresponsible (IE: not considering, or caring, about past/future in decision making.)

too much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time

No one can leave the present-time. If they could then that'd be time traveling you know?

... and then you either completely miss my point, or try and shut down the fact that I had one by interupting a complete statement.

and while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.

This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected

Ok, your technique here is almost apalling, however... there is a lot of logical uncertainty in life that cannot be completely forseen. I myself have lived on the streets, have broken several bones, have been hit by a car, and have seen two planes crash into each other. I'm not an expert, but yeah, I think that plans need to be flexible in order to account for stuff like that.

What I get from the rant is Death to Poultry trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way.

I read something different. It was all the stuff that's not free-will is stupid and your stupid to think otherwise? Then something about nihilism and existentialism being stupid too. Plus this part about determinism and free-will is not everything and who says it was? But since your bringing it up.

Well I guess we both got different ideas from the rant, thats great, score one for the fluidity of the english language. Incidentally, I'm not exactly trying to refute you, or contest your position... so there is no need to be territorial (or tyrannical) about what you think.

If you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.

Doomed people see the world through there doomed goggles. Not much
different than God's people seeing the world through God goggles. I got
my determinism goggles on right now! To argue against rant 15X

Looking at the big picture I don't see a clockwork universe. I think there is a lot the we don't know; Newtonian physics is dead; Hell Einsteins relativity is that dead now? I still don't think quantum theories prove indeterminism because at that level things aren't exactly elegant more at strange physics.

Yet the big picture the way I see it goes something like this; I just like to philosophize sometimes. I don't think it's a fatal waste of my time. I gave up being a christian; never heard of philosophy before then. I'm now an atheist. Something none of my family can make a claim to be. I have since turning my life away from Jesus increased my comfort in living ten fold. My comfort in dying 100 fold.

The big picture is what you think it is - what's important - to me may not be important to you - but you only have to look around to see that saying - somewhere there are 1 billion chinamen that couldn't care less? Someone know the quote? anyways  - something like that.

I know I don't give a fuck neither. I know what's important to me and that's doing whatever I think is important but realizing that not everybody else and a lot of other people will think I'm fucking retarded for doing it.

Like screwing it up and saying existenialism instead of essentialism which I know nothing about at this time. Yet I went back and looked again since my reading of it is no longer fresh on my memory and I quote.

Huğh:::Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb.

See to Huğh I'm dumb. Yet I'm using words almost like they "mean" something, the rants 15X of them now? What do they mean then? I would ask? Are they not supposed to mean anything?

Maybe the answer is soundgarden. I don't know you'd have to ask him.

The big picture the big screen fliiping the channel to another station. THX. Surround. Something appears on the screen.....

You know waht - I had fun doing it - without changing.

I guess I'll have to reiterate the fact that you are doomed. DOOMED. DOOMED. I mean, just think of how gigantic Jupiter is compared to your entire pathetic human existence, and mine for that matter. Why, an object from the Kuiper belt could demolish our puny little chunk of rock that we call a planet and what could we do about it? Argue with it? Regardless, I tend to argue in the favor of EXTREME subjectivity in all things. I mean, I dont go as far as solipsism, but in terms of what can or cannot be proven I will fall back on that as a device to demonstrate that proof is inherantly subjective because all human interaction is based on uncertainty. You get me?

Determinism or no, I dont want anybody shoving their metaphysical penis down my throat, so lighten up a little bit.

And yes, I had fun.

[eighteen buddha strike]

Upon re-reading my response, there is something I feel that I meant to touch upon but did not do so to my liking. This would be my point regarding past/present/future.

You see, we live in the present and the present is the only thing we ever really experience. Memory is fallable to the point where we can have serious doubts to the things we've experienced in the past, assuming they do not stick out drastically in our memory, and even then we are going to be extremely shady about the details. We use the past as a tool to guide our decisions in terms of what was a good idea, and what probably will be a good idea. We use the future in a similar way, even though it is even more uncertain than our past, because we want to set goals for ourselves or to have a good idea of where we might end up and where we might be. My point, my entire point, is that both of those things are kind of shady... and that its not a bad idea to use the future/past as guiding points or to be aware of them (as a matter of fact, it is a good idea) however, we can never be absolutely sure how the myriad of elements of life that are beyond our control will affect us in the future, and we can never be entirely sure how accurate our perception of the past (or even, it could be argued, our perception of the world around us in the present) actually is.

Focusing too much on the past leads to living in the past, it leads to stagnation and regret. It leads to the inability to adapt due to these factors.

Focusing too much on the future, or rather what we think of the future, leads to an inability to adapt when the world doesnt magically fit with your plans. Its also a distraction from the  present.

When I refute the existence of the past/future, realize that I am not speaking entirely literally. Hell, if you dont read in between the lines you just wont get me and thats the way it goes, but even if the past/future do not literally exist (which I will neither attempt to prove or disprove) realize that they can be useful tools for guidance, but make for poor crutches.

[Cain]

I think I get what you mean.  They're useful, but if you base everything around it, then whatever advantages you get are lost.

[Dags]

Holy shit. As much as I loathe the concept of taking off my gloves and engaging it some good ol' fashioned sophism, it might be necessary. Even if it makes me feel dirty, and it does, sometimes things just have to come to blows.

I just posted something else on sophism and if my reason for doing it was to change the other guys mind I would be wasting my time. It was for myself that I do so; If it helps out great but, It's honest to say this rarely do I ever get anything in return from the person I'm talking to, rarely; a new insight. It's this way for most folks though; you can't really be wide open or completely shut down; If your going to make a go of it.

Yes. I think that time is real. All of it that actually happens. Since I've no reason for thinking it's going to suddenly stop - why not act as if it won't / If it does stop then what difference would it make.

... and then you either completely miss my point, or try and shut down the fact that I had one by interupting a complete statement.

Yeah my bad. But it felt good for me. Apologies.

This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected

Ok, your technique here is almost apalling, however... there is a lot of logical uncertainty in life that cannot be completely forseen. I myself have lived on the streets, have broken several bones, have been hit by a car, and have seen two planes crash into each other. I'm not an expert, but yeah, I think that plans need to be flexible in order to account for stuff like that.

Wow! You should write a book about it. Just watch it with Oprah 'cause she's onto checking that shit out now! I kid. I kid.

Your a survivor. I think I understand waht your saying.

Well I guess we both got different ideas from the rant, thats great, score one for the fluidity of the english language. Incidentally, I'm not exactly trying to refute you, or contest your position... so there is no need to be territorial (or tyrannical) about what you think.

Yeah, I was looking for what looked wrong about it to me.

I guess I'll have to reiterate the fact that you are doomed. DOOMED. DOOMED. I mean, just think of how gigantic Jupiter is compared to your entire pathetic human existence, and mine for that matter. Why, an object from the Kuiper belt could demolish our puny little chunk of rock that we call a planet and what could we do about it? Argue with it? Regardless, I tend to argue in the favor of EXTREME subjectivity in all things. I mean, I dont go as far as solipsism, but in terms of what can or cannot be proven I will fall back on that as a device to demonstrate that proof is inherantly subjective because all human interaction is based on uncertainty. You get me?

Ha! Doomed goggles. It's not any kind of fact. Is a rabbits life pathetic through doomed goggles? Can you find not one single person who's life isn't/wasn't/or will be pathetic through your doomed goggles? Take them off man. Life is sweet!-heh

I mean really I don't give a blip about how big Jupiter makes me small in comparison I mean you compare Jupiter to the value of a human life? It's unimportant to me. Like the chinese don't give a rat's arse about what I'm saying right now. A lot of them and throw in most of the population of the world in not the entire population of the planet for that matter either don't care, don't know, and/or wouldn't give a damn or would give a damn about what I'm saying. Should I care? Should I bottle up what I'm thinking inside, cower in a corner and thiink the end is nigh' . Nah. Nah. Nah. Fuck that. I knew something was wrong with those goggles as soon as I put them on.

You seem to think I should wear them. You seem to think so. Why? I might not comment on it or wahtever but if you take the time to write it or anything else on this and that or the other I'll take the time to read it.

Hmm... Goggles. For some reason the "grid" comes to mind. Beer goggles. Star Wars the empire strikes back. Zippo lighters.

Determinism or no, I dont want anybody shoving their metaphysical penis down my throat, so lighten up a little bit.

That's not a penis and it's offered for free; reject it / take it / ignore it / it's up to you entirely. I don't mean to offend. Honest.

And yes, I had fun.[/quote]



Bring it on then. I have patches and duct tape all over. I fell to my death
sixteen years ago. I've been shot, stabbed, beaten, oh no... wait a
minute... Well I've watched a lot of movies... -heh I did have to shovel
maggots one time I don't remember what I was being punished for though.

Anyways. If nothing else; I'm glad we met.

Have a super day and you deserve it for all that typing.

For all my typing lately I think I'm going to take a few months off from all of this again. I've deserved that and those that don't want to hear it deserve there break from it too! -heh

Plus my post count is getting embarassingly high seeing as I consider a high post count - in consideration of the time of course - a good indicator of either a messiah complex or some sort of dependence... - heh But that's just me.

It's easier to stay out than to get out. - Mark Twain

I beg to disagree with Twain but even dead he's still the fuckin' man. My will shall preveil though with enough determination or I'll just keep on posting like I've been doing for a few weeks again....

asdf
jkl;

[DJRubberducky]

One of y'all posted asking if a person could change how old s/he was.

If you only consider "old" to be something derived from calendar markings, then my serious answer is somewhere between "no" and "yes, but holy crap I can't imagine it would matter enough to someone that they'd do everything it would take to succeed".  (The smartass answer being "Sure you can - teenagers do it all the time to buy booze and smokes!")  The calendar, after all, is a human construct - created and adopted so folks can more easily and accurately communicate the relative length of time that's elapsed between events.  Either you choose to keep working within the existing construct for the sake of that ease in communication (in which case the answer is "no"), or you choose to fabricate your own construct and then deal with the ramifications of that choice when attempting to communicate your ideas of time passage to other humans.  (Hacking in to every database which keeps a file on you and altering the calendar dates therein would IMO fall under the latter.)

The other option I see is to consider "old" to be an inverse function of your vitality.  I have to assume the aforementioned poster was dismissing this option out of hand, because taking this option makes your age very malleable indeed.  There's a reason grocery and convenience stores set their "look younger than" carding ages at 30 or sometimes 35.

[eighteen buddha strike]

I dont like to argue about stuff.

I like my DOOM goggles.

Just because I'm wearing goggles doesnt mean you're not DOOMED.

I am the Happy Go-Lucky Evil.

[LMNO]

Dear Dags,

If understanding and comprehension are your goal, please to use generally accepted practices of grammar and syntax, as well as the Premise/evidence/conclusion form of paragraph structure.


LMNO
-Can no longer be bothered trying to decipher said gobbledygook.

[hooplala]

Agreed.  He reads like JP Fartre.

[LMNO]

Only less coherent.

I realized I had spent over 1000 words just to clarify his opening statement before i realized I shouldn't be doing his job for him.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Nihilism is just a hobby.

This is the best slogan yet.