Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Literate Chaotic => Topic started by: DrStrangechao on May 22, 2020, 06:23:19 pm

Title: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: DrStrangechao on May 22, 2020, 06:23:19 pm
Greetings!

I'll make the grand leap of faith and assume there are some classical/Greek mythology aficionados on this site who may be willing to assist this layperson with the story of the Golden Apple of Eris.

I've read a few different interpretations/translations of the inscription:
"to the prettiest"
"to the most beautiful"
"to the fairest"

On the surface these may be seen as minor linguistic and conceptual deviations, however I question if the last interpretation may be the most "correct" and has different meaning than the red-herring meaning of an aesthetic beauty.  Forgive me for not having the time, patience, energy, etc. to start learning Ancient Greek. I'm leaning hard on those smarter and more resourceful.
If those three other goddesses had seen the word "fair" in terms of "just," perhaps they would have seen past their own vanity and simply given it back to the one who truly was/is the fairest (and avoided that whole war thing).  Of course you Discordians know to whom I refer ;)
 
And on that note, where the fuck *is* the apple? 

 
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 22, 2020, 06:37:59 pm
Not sure, but what I AM sure of is that it doesn't matter.

There is nothing "just" about Eris.  She is a crone wading knee-deep in blood, smirking because she taught those other gods BUT GOOD for leaving her out of a party, and she did it by triggering a dark age.

Lastly, given general Greek mythology, it meant "the hottest," because the Greeks were shallow as fuck.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on May 22, 2020, 07:05:21 pm
And on that note, where the fuck *is* the apple?
We gave it to Cram for safe-keeping, but he ate it.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 22, 2020, 10:20:28 pm
In the earliest versions there's no mention of an inscription at all. An apple thrown was a symbol of undying love akin to a marriage proposal... and yet there's a greater mystery.


Fun side note on "Golden Apples"

Quote
In later years it was thought that the "golden apples" might have actually been oranges, a fruit unknown to Europe and the Mediterranean before the Middle Ages.[33] Under this assumption, the Greek botanical name chosen for all citrus species was Hesperidoeidē (Ἑσπεριδοειδῆ, "hesperidoids") and even today the Greek word for the orange fruit is πορτοκάλι (Portokáli)--after the country of Portugal in Iberia near where the Garden of the Hesperides grew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides


You may be barking up the wrong tree, entirely.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: minuspace on May 22, 2020, 10:27:03 pm
Greetings!

[...]
 
And on that note, where what the fuck *is* the apple?

[FTFY]

Exactly.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Cramulus on May 23, 2020, 03:52:53 pm
The phrase on the apple, "ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ" may be derived from an epithet of the nymph Callisto:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)#Origin_of_the_myth

It sounds like the word was sometimes attached to other goddess names, like Kallisti Athena (Athena the Most Beautiful)


this page on the Apple adds a little more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_of_Discord#%22To_the_Most_Beautiful%22

Quote
Καλλίστῃ is the dative singular of the feminine superlative of καλός, beautiful. In Latin sources, the word is formosissima.

"formosissima" is latin for "most beautiful" or "most well-formed", which seems to refer to physical qualities.


But  The Greek word καλός (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82) seems a little bit more broad than saying something is "well put together", it also has a connotation of rightness:


Quote
καλός • (kalós) m (feminine καλή, neuter καλόν); first/second declension

1. beautiful, lovely
2. good, quality, useful
3. good, right, moral, virtuous, noble

Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: LMNO on May 23, 2020, 07:08:12 pm
In the earliest versions there's no mention of an inscription at all. An apple thrown was a symbol of undying love akin to a marriage proposal... and yet there's a greater mystery.


Fun side note on "Golden Apples"

Quote
In later years it was thought that the "golden apples" might have actually been oranges, a fruit unknown to Europe and the Mediterranean before the Middle Ages.[33] Under this assumption, the Greek botanical name chosen for all citrus species was Hesperidoeidē (Ἑσπεριδοειδῆ, "hesperidoids") and even today the Greek word for the orange fruit is πορτοκάλι (Portokáli)--after the country of Portugal in Iberia near where the Garden of the Hesperides grew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides


You may be barking up the wrong tree, entirely.

Oranges?

 :batman:
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on May 23, 2020, 07:54:55 pm
In the earliest versions there's no mention of an inscription at all. An apple thrown was a symbol of undying love akin to a marriage proposal... and yet there's a greater mystery.


Fun side note on "Golden Apples"

Quote
In later years it was thought that the "golden apples" might have actually been oranges, a fruit unknown to Europe and the Mediterranean before the Middle Ages.[33] Under this assumption, the Greek botanical name chosen for all citrus species was Hesperidoeidē (Ἑσπεριδοειδῆ, "hesperidoids") and even today the Greek word for the orange fruit is πορτοκάλι (Portokáli)--after the country of Portugal in Iberia near where the Garden of the Hesperides grew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides


You may be barking up the wrong tree, entirely.

Oranges?

 :batman:

I'm AFRAID SO..

it's worth noting that they are a universal symbol of good luck in China, for some unfathomable reason, and there's like 14 nouns meaning orange(fruit).
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Juana on May 24, 2020, 08:09:37 pm
The phrase on the apple, "ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ" may be derived from an epithet of the nymph Callisto:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)#Origin_of_the_myth

It sounds like the word was sometimes attached to other goddess names, like Kallisti Athena (Athena the Most Beautiful)


this page on the Apple adds a little more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_of_Discord#%22To_the_Most_Beautiful%22

Quote
Καλλίστῃ is the dative singular of the feminine superlative of καλός, beautiful. In Latin sources, the word is formosissima.

"formosissima" is latin for "most beautiful" or "most well-formed", which seems to refer to physical qualities.


But  The Greek word καλός (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82) seems a little bit more broad than saying something is "well put together", it also has a connotation of rightness:


Quote
καλός • (kalós) m (feminine καλή, neuter καλόν); first/second declension

1. beautiful, lovely
2. good, quality, useful
3. good, right, moral, virtuous, noble


That's not particularly surprising. If you were beautiful, it was because the gods loved you and iirc there's a connection between beauty and moral rightness in some Indo European traditions.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2020, 10:42:59 pm
Especially for the Ancient Greeks. Exhibit A: Apollo, beautiful, skilled, talented and the national god of the Greeks themselves as a people.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 24, 2020, 11:01:20 pm
And on that note, where the fuck *is* the apple?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDzV3qycOqM
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: rong on May 24, 2020, 11:49:46 pm
So Eris is why orange juice is yellow?
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 25, 2020, 06:03:58 am
The phrase on the apple, "ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ" may be derived from an epithet of the nymph Callisto:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)#Origin_of_the_myth

It sounds like the word was sometimes attached to other goddess names, like Kallisti Athena (Athena the Most Beautiful)


this page on the Apple adds a little more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_of_Discord#%22To_the_Most_Beautiful%22

Quote
Καλλίστῃ is the dative singular of the feminine superlative of καλός, beautiful. In Latin sources, the word is formosissima.

"formosissima" is latin for "most beautiful" or "most well-formed", which seems to refer to physical qualities.


But  The Greek word καλός (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82) seems a little bit more broad than saying something is "well put together", it also has a connotation of rightness:


Quote
καλός • (kalós) m (feminine καλή, neuter καλόν); first/second declension

1. beautiful, lovely
2. good, quality, useful
3. good, right, moral, virtuous, noble


That's not particularly surprising. If you were beautiful, it was because the gods loved you and iirc there's a connection between beauty and moral rightness in some Indo European traditions.

And in America.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: DrStrangechao on May 25, 2020, 10:53:24 pm
Not sure, but what I AM sure of is that it doesn't matter.

There is nothing "just" about Eris.  She is a crone wading knee-deep in blood, smirking because she taught those other gods BUT GOOD for leaving her out of a party, and she did it by triggering a dark age.

Lastly, given general Greek mythology, it meant "the hottest," because the Greeks were shallow as fuck.

Thank you Doktor, I am probably sure that you are correct in that it doesn't matter.  As with most things, in general. 
Still...I like to explore alternative theories to pass the time  You evidently have some to share :)

Is Eris a petty bitch? Really sounds like one if you put it that way. :(

And here I was thinking that chaos/discord could be seen as "just" in a bizarre way, since we are pretty much all susceptible to it. On varying levels. I am possibly overthinking this.

The Greeks sure did have a "hotness" virtue lol.  There is an emphasis on aesthetic beauty in their tales. Screw all that inner beauty shit. External "hotness" is hardly fair/just and (mostly) overrated. It is a bonus, though!
:D
 
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: DrStrangechao on May 25, 2020, 11:16:46 pm
And on that note, where the fuck *is* the apple?
We gave it to Cram for safe-keeping, but he ate it.

Of course he did.  Why let anything go to waste? 
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Juana on May 27, 2020, 05:11:31 am
The phrase on the apple, "ΤΗΙ ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ" may be derived from an epithet of the nymph Callisto:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)#Origin_of_the_myth

It sounds like the word was sometimes attached to other goddess names, like Kallisti Athena (Athena the Most Beautiful)


this page on the Apple adds a little more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_of_Discord#%22To_the_Most_Beautiful%22

Quote
Καλλίστῃ is the dative singular of the feminine superlative of καλός, beautiful. In Latin sources, the word is formosissima.

"formosissima" is latin for "most beautiful" or "most well-formed", which seems to refer to physical qualities.


But  The Greek word καλός (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82) seems a little bit more broad than saying something is "well put together", it also has a connotation of rightness:


Quote
καλός • (kalós) m (feminine καλή, neuter καλόν); first/second declension

1. beautiful, lovely
2. good, quality, useful
3. good, right, moral, virtuous, noble


That's not particularly surprising. If you were beautiful, it was because the gods loved you and iirc there's a connection between beauty and moral rightness in some Indo European traditions.

And in America.
Absolutely
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: DrStrangechao on May 27, 2020, 08:29:59 pm
Greetings!

[...]
 
And on that note, where what the fuck *is* the apple?

[FTFY]

Exactly.

Thank you for the correction.  It totally changes the question (and potential answers) :)
What was the big deal about an apple? Maybe if it was actually made of gold, it would make sense. Or maybe apples, oranges, various other tree fruit were rare (even for the gods) that it was coveted so. Maybe it's just a metaphorical lesson in don't fight over what's not yours.

@The Wizard Joseph and @Cramulus

These stories are a giant game of etymology aka "telephone."  Found this one (from an unverified internet source, Quora):

Fair./

( Amharic)

Faird, verb : Justice, law, true judgement.

Fairede= He judged fairly

Fairedech= she judged fairly

Fairdenibetal = we have judged upon him

Fairdenibetal= we have judged upon her

Fairedu = they have judged

Ina-Faired= let us give judgement

Fairdu = the judgement

This language is spoken in parts of eastern Africa. The Greeks, like any other culture, were influenced by other belief systems, e.g. Egyptian.  Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree altogether but hey, it's worth a neuron or two of discussion.  Everything is connected lol

And not sure where to post this question, but what's with the Captcha exercises each time to post something?  Why do I feel as if I'm helping the AI to recognize stop signs, crosswalks, traffic lights, fire hydrants, etc? so as to further the goals of self-driving cars and delivery drones? 
I am not a robot! Not yet?


 
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: minuspace on May 27, 2020, 10:48:08 pm
Greetings!

[...]
 
And on that note, where what the fuck *is* the apple?

[FTFY]

Exactly.

Maybe it's just a metaphorical lesson in don't fight over what's not yours.



I like that, it’s really strong case for possession  :)
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: altered on May 27, 2020, 11:20:17 pm
I’ve been following this thread and it’s surprisingly coherent and high quality given how it started. Normally this shit devolves into pinealist trash. Good work, everyone.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 28, 2020, 04:59:15 am
Not sure, but what I AM sure of is that it doesn't matter.

There is nothing "just" about Eris.  She is a crone wading knee-deep in blood, smirking because she taught those other gods BUT GOOD for leaving her out of a party, and she did it by triggering a dark age.

Lastly, given general Greek mythology, it meant "the hottest," because the Greeks were shallow as fuck.

Thank you Doktor, I am probably sure that you are correct in that it doesn't matter.  As with most things, in general. 
Still...I like to explore alternative theories to pass the time  You evidently have some to share :)

Is Eris a petty bitch? Really sounds like one if you put it that way. :(

And here I was thinking that chaos/discord could be seen as "just" in a bizarre way, since we are pretty much all susceptible to it. On varying levels. I am possibly overthinking this.

The Greeks sure did have a "hotness" virtue lol.  There is an emphasis on aesthetic beauty in their tales. Screw all that inner beauty shit. External "hotness" is hardly fair/just and (mostly) overrated. It is a bonus, though!
:D
 

If you wanna call Eris a bitch, do it over there.  Way over there.
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: DrStrangechao on June 16, 2020, 04:59:38 pm
Quote

If you wanna call Eris a bitch, do it over there.  Way over there.

I don't *want* to call Eris a bitch, nor was the intent of my question to imply that she is.   Legit, want to see if there are perspectives not usually considered with regard to how this tale has been told.  If the general consensus is that Eris was pissed about not being invited to a wedding, showed up and was told to get lost, "dropped" an apple dedicated to the "prettiest" (which, btw, is a fucking brilliant move to cause turmoil amongst women in general lol), created a decade-long war amongst mortals and milennia-long stereotype about Greeks and gifts, then who am I to argue with the general consensus?   I mean, we are here to agree with one another on everything, right?

;)



 
Title: Re: This question is "for the brightest"
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 16, 2020, 07:48:09 pm
I mean, we are here to agree with one another on everything, right?

;)

The rest of your post was lost because of this last bit.