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So we should punish innocent Israelis for the actions of their democratic government....but not innocent Palestinians for the actions of their democratic government (ignoring the for moment that Hamas' military arm is in fact more of a private militia attached to a political party)?

GREAT IDEA!

Incidentally, I believe the large scale forceable movement of people based on nationality is known as ethnic cleansing and is an international war crime for which you can be tried by any country in the world.

There are Israelis who have been born and lived in Israel all of their lives, just as their are Palestinians who have been born and raised in Palestine all their lives.  Should the Israelis stop being dicks, disband the settlements and not resort to military incursions everytime someone in the Occupied Territories sneezes?  Sure.  Equally, should the supposed Palestinian nationalist movements try not killing innocent civilians, promoting Sharia law and taking handouts from Israel's military enemies?  Again yes, unless they want to be seen as proxies for its eventual destruction.

As it happens, I condemn Palestianians for voting Hamas in, in the same way I condemn Israelis for voting for Sharon or Americans for Bush or Brits for Blair.  Because these people and their political programs are fucktarded in the extreme.  They're free to chose and I'm free to call bullshit on their choices.

As an aside, it was the dissolution of the Caliphate by Kemal Ataturk which really screwed up the Middle East.  That was the regional hegemon, and the Turks were good at enforcing order.  He decided the costs of empire were greater than the benefits and so cut loose much of the Middle East, dumping the mess into the lap of the victors, who obviously had no clue as to what sort of shitstorm they had inherited.

Well, I certainly don't want to punish innocent Israelis (I suppose their government is similar to ours in terms of their imperialistic-ness).  I'd like to see a cease to the fighting.  I'm really not sure who or what instigated the violence in the first place but it's gone on long enough.  True, I should have thought out the Hamas being elected a bit more (a terrorist organization is not exactly helping anything).  If there was any way to resolve this bloodshed, I'd be all for it (I'm sure 99% of people would be, too). Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

Of course, it could be that in many cases a religious impulse is often the reason one goes out giving masses of food to the poor...but then we get into an argument about first causes and psychology that will likely never be resolved.

I kinda doubt it's a religious impulse.  I believe Hamas/Hezbollah function in a way similar to the mafia when it first started out.  That is, in a way to benefit the people directly and not be held accountable to any external regulatory systems.

On a different topic, I don't understand why I'm supposed to condemn the Palestinians for electing a terrorist group into power.  They wanted them to be their leaders, so why is that such a bad thing?  And it's understandable, too.  After facing more than a half-century of hostility from their closest neighbor, wouldn't they want to have leaders willing to defend their territory?  And why should I think Israel is a hopeless victim in the Middle East when they continue to pursue acts of aggression on their muslim neighbors?  Are they (the other countries in the mid-east) really so naive as to be totally off-base about Israel's intolerance for coexistence?  Maybe the rational thing to do would be to relocate the people of Israel yet again seeing as how a) the Allies after WWI destroyed the stability of the region with the Treaty of Versailles and b) they then seized land for the Jews as repairations for the Holocaust after WWII.  I can see why so many people are so pissed off at the US and Israel.

I'd like to resurrect this thread's discussion.  It seems pretty clear that the world's on the verge of a lot of technological change.  The technology industry has been able to keep proprietary is now becoming open source; Really useful and impactful technology has started to trickle down to common availability, and it seems crucial to me that there's a high opportunity for gaining an edge over most by implementing the newest ideas and devices before others. 

Thoughts?  Am I off my nut on this one?  I think not.

Innovation being the driving force of society (or one of them) is supposed to be what this country (USA) is about.  It isn't, though, currently.  The American Dream of having our best and brightest get to the top through "working smarter" has long since died out and the new means for attaining power is the overly  simplistic idea of making generating capital and nothing more.  If the rush of innovation in technology really does end up benefiting the innovators themselves (and not their managers/CEOs), we might see a resurrection of the American Dream. 

But a question (excuse me if this is stupid, I am not a mathematician), wouldn't Gödel's incompleteness theorems shed doubt on some aspects of mathematics and the natural world claims made by the author?  Because if "any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete"

Damn you!  I wanted smart points for saying that.

bingo. that's pretty much the reason why i partly abandoned rationality and reductionism/determinism about 7 or 8 years ago.

I just recently did the same thing about a year ago.  It's much more satisfying.  (Although, I haven't completely abandoned rationality)

the possibility of winning a ticket into Heaven accompanied by a boat load of virgins

I want me that boat load of virgins.

But then again, most of society today seems almost completely lacking in any moral compass whatsoever. So if 'God' does his part to scare some little bastard out of stealing my fucking car, I guess I can't complain too much.

Any Atheist who does seriously needs to reevaluate his priorities.

Good point, man.  I couldn't agree more with this post.  I've been finding all the atheist humor I stumble onto to be regurgitated crud based off the same tired jokes.  Maybe people should be judged for who they are instead of what they believe in?  I dunno.

When people say "religion has caused more wars than anything else," I tend to disagree.  I doubt anyone would seriously start a war to "convert the heathens."  I'm guessing religion was the card played by the ruling elite to manipualte the people into fighting (with the possible exception of the Crusades, but I'm no historian). 

Lol  Good point (although, Christians in US are not just majority in #'s but also in terms of power).

*sniff*  The poor, poor Christian majority.  It's just not fair they've endured all this freebased hatred from a scattered bunch of homosexuals, atheists, communists and others of their ilk.  Not to mention Nazi, genocidal hatred.  I mean, when 80% of a country's citizens are being persecuted like those in Nazi Germany, someone is using a really pathetic comparison!

If I accidentally quote Star Trek, it's because of lag.

That's you.

Many people in my opinion believe what they believe for feelings of comfort, acceptance  or something else that suits a need of theirs.

Seeking truth and not hiding from it is what I should have said.

If one can embrace the truth, then being honest at crucial times will be infinitely more valuable.

Iraqi intelligence officials have ascertained the identity of the mysterious leader of a terrorist organization.  His name is General Petraeus.
...
The Pentagon announced today that Iran's nuclear program has a "distinct possibility" of generating one nuclear warhead every sixteen years.  Dire predictions have been made for the year 18,008 when their nuclear capabilities match ours.
....
Nobel-prize winning politician Al Gore called for a plan to "construct your own alternative energy" so the average consumer can help meet developing requirements on using green energy.  Lego has mobilized to launch a series of products to do just that.  They are projected to be out by the end of the year.
....
North Korea vehemently decried the United States policy of ignoring their position in the Axis of Evil despite their unequivocal record at being evil.  "Iran and Iraq get all the coverage!!"  said a furious Kim Jon Ill today.  "We have tripled our executions and have launched a campaign to starve 20% of the country!  What's a dictatorship gotta do to get some coverage?"
....
The Chinese have issued a statement regarding a crucial foreign policy.  Rumors indicate this statement is ominous in nature.  Unfortunately, an American who understands Chinese could not be found.  Experts blamed a liberal conspiracy to separate Church and State for this abysmal trend in United States educational standards.  Upon further questioning, one expert commented, "If God ain't in dem schools, dem Fags is gonna wreck our kids.  Dem kids is not gonna learn dem Chinese... theyz gonna learn bout leather spandex!"
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I'm Ekkstremo the Clown and all of us here at some random news station hope you have a good night. 

How about being honest with yourself and being honest with others when it's important?

"Bath time is me time."
-Dana Carvey show