http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html
QuoteDr. George Tiller, whose Wichita, Kansas, women's clinic has been the target of anti-abortion protests for years, was shot and killed at his church Sunday morning, his attorneys said.
"Were so pro-life we will kill for the cause"
\
:mullet:
Quote from: The Pariah on May 31, 2009, 08:18:20 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html
QuoteDr. George Tiller, whose Wichita, Kansas, women's clinic has been the target of anti-abortion protests for years, was shot and killed at his church Sunday morning, his attorneys said.
"Were so pro-life we will kill for the cause"
\
:mullet:
Kansas. :lulz:
His poor family. :(
On the other hand, yet another example one can use to mock the rabidly pro-life.
From another forum:
QuoteSurprise, surprise the suspect is Scott Roeder a long term nutjob who regulary posted on the Operation Rescue website. The OR website is also down right now because they are busy scrubbing it to remove every trace that he was ever a member.
Google archive page here of one of his posts...see post #9:
(http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ZzTSMfjbUlsJ:www.operationrescue.org/pray-in-may-to-end-aboriton-wichita-ks-may-17-20-2007/+%22scott+roeder%22+kansas&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
The guy also has a long history, he was a member of the anti-government "Freemen" group and was arrested for having bomb making materials in 1996.
Wednesday, April 17, 1996
Suspected Freeman Arrested With Bomb Fuse
TOPEKA, Kan. - A man identified by the FBI as a member of the anti-government Freemen group was arrested yesterday after deputies found what they called a bomb-triggering device in his car.
Scott Roeder, 38, of Silver Lake, Kan., was arrested in Topeka and held on charges of criminal use of explosives, driving with a suspended license and failure to carry registration and insurance.
Roeder was stopped because his car didn't have a legitimate license plate. Instead, it had a tag indicating the driver was a "sovereign" citizen and immune from Kansas law.
The same type of tag is sometimes used by Freemen, whose members in Montana are in the fourth week of a standoff with federal agents.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960417&slug=2324642
So that DHS report about right wing domestic terrorists doesn't seem so crazy anymore.
Sure it did, because Obama is a Hitler and the report was obviously a slur against conservatives and ACORN and ANSWER are the real extremists.
I called this though, back in 2007. The neo-Bircherites are going into a meltdown.
if another doctor dies we should totally start burning down churches
Burn the churches and give them to the Jews?
why not the homeless
WTF does a homeless person want with a burning church?
Meme-failure, ITT.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 01, 2009, 12:31:21 PM
WTF does a homeless person want with a burning church?
Perfect hobo fire
There is a church in Zanesville that got turned into the first strip club in town. That seems like a good use of the resources.
Talk about dancing on the pews!
O'RLY has blood on his hands:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/index.html
QuoteBut there's no other person who bears as much responsibility for the characterization of Tiller as a savage on the loose, killing babies willy-nilly thanks to the collusion of would-be sophisticated cultural elites, a bought-and-paid-for governor and scofflaw secular journalists. Tiller's name first appeared on "The Factor" on Feb. 25, 2005. Since then, O'Reilly and his guest hosts have brought up the doctor on 28 more episodes, including as recently as April 27 of this year. Almost invariably, Tiller is described as "Tiller the Baby Killer."
Tiller, O'Reilly likes to say, "destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000." He's guilty of "Nazi stuff," said O'Reilly on June 8, 2005; a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida, he suggested on March 15, 2006. "This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao's China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union," said O'Reilly on Nov. 9, 2006.
O'Reilly has also frequently linked Tiller to his longtime obsession, child molestation and rape. Because a young teenager who received an abortion from Tiller could, by definition, have been a victim of statutory rape, O'Reilly frequently suggested that the clinic was covering up for child rapists (rather than teenage boyfriends) by refusing to release records on the abortions performed.
This is where O'Reilly's campaign against George Tiller becomes dangerous. While he never advocated anything violent or illegal, the Fox bully repeatedly portrayed the doctor as a murderer on the loose, allowed to do whatever he wanted by corrupt and decadent authorities. "Also, it looks like Dr. Tiller, who some call Tiller the Baby Killer, is spending a large amount of money in order to get Mr. Morrison elected. That opens up all kinds of questions," said O'Reilly on Nov. 6, 2006, in one of many suggestions that Tiller was improperly influencing the election.
Tiller's excuses for performing late-term abortions, O'Reilly suggested, were frou-frou, New Age, false ailments: The woman might have a headache or anxiety, or have been dumped by her boyfriend. She might be "depressed," scoffed O'Reilly, which he dismissed as "feeling a bit blue and carr[ying] a certified check." There was, he proposed on Jan. 5, 2007, a kind of elite conspiracy of silence on Tiller. "Yes, OK, but we know about the press. But it becomes a much more intense problem when you have a judge, confronted with evidence of criminal wrongdoing, who throws it out on some technicality because he wants to be liked at the country club. Then it's intense."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 31, 2009, 08:28:27 PM
Quote from: The Pariah on May 31, 2009, 08:18:20 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html
QuoteDr. George Tiller, whose Wichita, Kansas, women's clinic has been the target of anti-abortion protests for years, was shot and killed at his church Sunday morning, his attorneys said.
"Were so pro-life we will kill for the cause"
\
:mullet:
Kansas. :lulz:
Tell me about it, I live there.
And just in case you still had a shred of respect for humanity:
Tweets of Hate: The Crazy Right Twitters About the Assassination of Dr Tiller.
http://carnalnation.com/content/7628/3/tweets-hate-crazy-right-twitters-about-murder-dr-tiller
QuoteA small sample of the hatred expressed on Twitter after the assassination of Dr Tiller:
* Crap, I always forgot hashtags. I'm happy Tiller's dead. - Jennifer Waite, Selah, Washington
* UPDATE... Doctor George Tiller was aborted today in his 204th trimester - aren't paybacks a bitch - Punch
* oh HAPPY DAY! Tiller the baby killer is DEAD! - Samantha Pelch
* George Tiller the baby killer was shot dead this morning. God bless the gunmen who hopefully won't be caught. - readnwatchchris, Creedmor. NC
* was George Tiller the baby killers brain scrambled the way he scrambled full term fetuses.. one can only hope - Brad S
* Infamous baby killer George Tiller gunned down at (irony) church. Why do I not feel sorry for him? Have fun at Judgment Day. - James Fiddler
* tiller the baby killer shot dead...wow. is it insensitive of me to say what goes around comes around? - Brad M. Negulescu Cleveland.
* George Tiller the Baby Killer shot dead. May he rot in Hell. - Amy Strong
* Tiller Baby Killer was shot and killed this morning Justice has been served. - Shirl Ledeux
* Thinking about "Tiller the baby killer" He now knows the wages of sin is death. - Dianne McDowell
* May Tiller rot in Hell , infanticide is the murder of babies, he WAS a provider of death like Hitler, Bundy the list goes on.... - Dennis, A People Voip Company
* Burn in hell George Tiller - mikedanben Sparta, NJ (41.005501,-74.672)
* No need to pray for George Tiller. We know he went straight to hell!!!!! - Laurie D. Bailey Olive Branch, MS
* Good ridence to Tiller - babies will not be murdered because he is now gone. Wonder how he likes hell! - Jay Emess, Southern, NJ
* Karma is a beautiful thing. Cheers to the hero who sent George Tiller where he belongs... straight to hell. - Matthew Kamar
* omg!george tiller abortion dr. was killed n his church parkn lot! hell yea! - Sarah Gulick, Wtichita, Ks
* George Tiller: Burning in Hell for the last three hours. - darthdilbert Kettering, Oh
* Hmm, I know it's wrong, but I feel like the Late-Term Abortion Doctor George Tiller, got what was he deserved..... - Mary Keogh London England
* Boom Boom Boom. George Tiller was served a very very late term abortion this morning. - Chad Coleman, coeur d'alene, Id
:horrormirth:
what's wrong with people :argh!:
Quote from: Squid on June 01, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
what's wrong with people :argh!:
It's the water.
Wow. People are such scumbuckets.
Quote from: Squid on June 01, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
what's wrong with people :argh!:
They're people... this is how people behave. We can dream about a world where people are sane and driven by thinking and considering... but its just not the way we monkeys are wired. If someone says "THAT GUYS IS AN ENEMY OF OUR TRIBE" some monkey is probably gonna go gunning for the guy. Especially, if its easy and there isn't much likelihood that the guy will gun back. For example, almost no red-blooded pickup driving, flag waving mook went running off to Afghanistan to take out Bin Laden for us... but they're more than happy to shoot some schmuck in the head while he's at Church.
That kind of thing is what the Sicilians used to do... you know to maintain the "We are batshit crazy motherfuckers" kind of vibe.
Evangelical Christians, the Sicilians of the 21st century. :lulz:
"Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"
Just remember that, like Vizzini, most Christian fundamentalists are not as smart as they like to think.
BTW, you might not want to click this link either: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2261924/posts
Or this one: hxxp://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=1268132#post1268132
And so that it's not all bad news:
Christ Kills Two, Injures Seven In Abortion-Clinic Attack
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/christ_kills_two_injures_seven_in
QuoteHUNTSVILLE, AL–Jesus Christ, son of God and noted pro-life activist, killed two and critically wounded seven others when He opened fire in the waiting room of a Huntsville abortion clinic Tuesday.
Security guards at the Women's Medical Clinic of Huntsville were able to disarm the Messiah before He could reload His weapon, a secondhand Glock 9mm pistol that authorities said He purchased legally at a Jackson, MS, sporting-goods store. "Abortion is a sin," said Christ as He was led away in handcuffs. "It is an abomination in the eyes of Me." Witnesses said the attack, which took the lives of Dr. Nelson Woodring, 51, and clinic nurse Danielle Costa, 29, came from "out of nowhere."
"He walked up to the admissions desk and asked if He could see Dr. Woodring," receptionist Iris Reid said. "The next thing I knew, He was shouting Biblical verses and opening fire on everything moving."
"It was horrible," said injured clinic nurse Jessica Combs, recovering at a local hospital with bullet wounds to the leg and abdomen. "He put his hands over Dr. Woodring's head and told him He forgave him for his sins, and then He shot him right in the face." Huntsville police officials are not certain how the Messiah was able to bypass clinic guards and proceed undetected past security cameras and into the clinic waiting room, where He produced the gun from its hiding place in the folds of His robe. Federal investigators are similarly baffled, saying that the heavily armed Christ had moved in "mysterious ways."
You know what's sad about that? There's so many Bible-thumping fuckers who would "FUCK YEAH!" that to death. Hippie Jesus is NOT their Jesus.
Nah, this is their Jesus:
(http://www.badkarmaproductions.com/jc/comics/2008-07-01-JesusPAGE.jpg)
Just in case someone pulls the "Not a True Christian
tm" Card:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/69151.html
QuoteScott P. Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., a Kansas City suburb, was arrested on Interstate 35 near Gardner in suburban Johnson County, Kan., about three hours after the shooting. Tiller was shot to death around 10 a.m. inside Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita.
In the rear window of the 1993 blue Ford Taurus that he was driving was a red rose, a symbol often used by abortion opponents. On the rear of his car was a Christian fish symbol with the word "Jesus" inside.
Those who know Roeder said he believed that killing abortion doctors was an act of justifiable homicide.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 01, 2009, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Squid on June 01, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
what's wrong with people :argh!:
They're people... this is how people behave. We can dream about a world where people are sane and driven by thinking and considering... but its just not the way we monkeys are wired. If someone says "THAT GUYS IS AN ENEMY OF OUR TRIBE" some monkey is probably gonna go gunning for the guy. Especially, if its easy and there isn't much likelihood that the guy will gun back. For example, almost no red-blooded pickup driving, flag waving mook went running off to Afghanistan to take out Bin Laden for us... but they're more than happy to shoot some schmuck in the head while he's at Church.
That kind of thing is what the Sicilians used to do... you know to maintain the "We are batshit crazy motherfuckers" kind of vibe.
Evangelical Christians, the Sicilians of the 21st century. :lulz:
motherfucking bullshit.
I'M people, and this is NOT how i behave.
these are not people, they're "god's robots" or somesuch shit.
Quote from: Squid on June 02, 2009, 06:11:40 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 01, 2009, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Squid on June 01, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
what's wrong with people :argh!:
They're people... this is how people behave. We can dream about a world where people are sane and driven by thinking and considering... but its just not the way we monkeys are wired. If someone says "THAT GUYS IS AN ENEMY OF OUR TRIBE" some monkey is probably gonna go gunning for the guy. Especially, if its easy and there isn't much likelihood that the guy will gun back. For example, almost no red-blooded pickup driving, flag waving mook went running off to Afghanistan to take out Bin Laden for us... but they're more than happy to shoot some schmuck in the head while he's at Church.
That kind of thing is what the Sicilians used to do... you know to maintain the "We are batshit crazy motherfuckers" kind of vibe.
Evangelical Christians, the Sicilians of the 21st century. :lulz:
motherfucking bullshit.
I'M people, and this is NOT how i behave.
these are not people, they're "god's robots" or somesuch shit.
Different day, same old script.
Quote* UPDATE... Doctor George Tiller was aborted today in his 204th trimester
I lolled. Tried not to but my spirit is weak :cry:
US journalist and expert on the far-right David Neiwert's co-writer, Sara Robinson, has a post up about Tiller on his blog:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/05/jesuss-jihadis.html
I arrived in DC for the America's Future Now! conference, kicked back in my hotel room, and was greeted with the news that Dr. George Tiller -- the Kansas gynecologist who has endured shootings, state investigations, public harassment, and more death threats than any thousand of us together can imagine in 20 years of standing up to that state's anti-abortion thugs -- was shot to death in his own Lutheran church this morning.
I don't have a lot of time to think through an elaborate post on this (I'm leading a panel with Tom Frank, Rick Perlstein, and James Rucker that will be televised in full on C-SPAN tomorrow), but there are several quick things that spring to mind.
1. Tiller was one of the great heroes in the fight for a woman's right to choose safe, legal abortion. Late-term abortions are a terrible business for everyone concerned. Despite anti-abortion distortions to the contrary, they are very rare -- and almost never chosen for anything but the most heartbreaking of reasons, usually having to do with the life of the mother or the viability of the fetus. It's a life-changing choice for everyone concerned, and not one anybody takes lightly.
By all accounts, Tiller dealt with these horrific situations with dignity, compassion, and grace, helping women and their families deal with the loss and grief that always come with being faced with such a traumatic decision. He didn't just tend to their physical condition; he tended to their psychological and spiritual well-being, too. Most of us will be backed into life-or-death corners regarding serious medical conditions (a family member's, or our own) at some point in our lives. In those times, we are fortunate when we can find doctors with that kind of ability to understand the nuances, and help us deal with the ambiguities, and come to terms with the hard decisions we must make. Tiller was, according to his patients, one of those doctors.
2. The Terrorists Win. Tiller was one of just three doctors in the entire US who performed late-term abortions. Now, there are just two. Which means that 36 years of anti-choice terrorism is now just two assassinations away from completely ending late-term abortion in America. [emphasis mine -Cain] Violence has won out -- over the will of the people, over the courts, over the horrific logic of medical necessity. And whenever terrorists win, democracy has lost -- and is lost.
3. Churches. First Knoxville, then this. I once made the point that lynchings typically occurred on courthouse lawns as a symbol that the mob had overridden the authority of the state and taken justice into its own hands. So what does it mean when right-wing terrorists start gunning down progressives in the pews of their own churches? Two events do not a pattern make -- but if this keeps happening, it'll be clear that there's a message being sent.
As I write this, police have a suspect in custody for Dr. Tiller's murder. There's no word yet on who the perpetrator is, or what motivated him; but it's a pretty sure bet that as the story comes out, he'll be found to be an anti-abortion True Believer. The fact that this killing happened on the sixth anniversary of Eric Rudolph's capture bears this out. The date was chosen with a message in mind. It seems very likely that the venue was, too.
I've often said that fundamentalism begins the minute you decide you have the One True Right and Only Way -- and that you have a God-given duty to impose that way on the rest of the world. Because of this, fundamentalists have never been willing to recognize the legitimacy of other faiths. And certain factions on the far right have never had qualms about vandalizing mosques or synagogues in order to harass Muslims and Jews into political and social silence.
But they used to leave Christian churches pretty much alone. The fact that this shooting occurred in a church (again) suggests that this tactic is now being tried out on more closely related faith groups whose views don't comport with the fundamentalist party line. As Dave has often pointed out, bringing violence to houses of worship is usually an overtly eliminationist act. They are trying to terrify liberals by making us feel at risk and unsafe inside our own spiritual sanctuaries -- the very places we go to feel the most security and peace. This is terrorism, plain and simple -- Christian fundamentalist terrorism, committed by people Sam Smith has started referring to as "Jesus's Jihadis."
4. I told you so? My mailbox is full of notes from friends pointing out the irony of this happening just days after Andrew Sullivan accused me of being over-the-top and shrill for suggesting that the right wing was moving into a more violent gear -- and that in the worst case, this is the kind of thing that brings on civil wars. I'm not entirely sure that's warranted. I was specifically worried about anti-gay violence in the wake of Prop 8 being overturned in the California Supreme Court, which didn't happen. But the larger point I've been writing about for the past few weeks now -- about the increased agitation we're seeing on the right, and the likelihood that we're in for a long, hot summer of this kind of acting-out -- is definitely borne out here.
I don't like being right about this kind of thing, but yeah, I did tell you so -- though not so much here as here.
5. Then, they fight you. Gandhi famously said: First, they ignore you. Then, they ridicule you. Then, they fight you. Then, you win.
I think the ridicule part is over, and the fighting part has started in earnest. And this is not (as many of us seemed to hope) going to be a metaphorical fight, but a real one -- with guns and bombs and death involved. The fact is: In America, whatever liberties we win and keep have all been bought in blood, and that's a historical truth that we are not going to get past any time soon.
In the meantime, our deepest condolences to Dr. Tiller's family and employees. If you want to put your money where your heart is, find your local Planned Parenthood clinic's website, and drop them a few bucks. Without George Tiller around, we're down one hero on our side -- and are going to need to give that much more support to everybody who's still around carrying on the work.
Quote from: Squid on June 02, 2009, 06:11:40 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 01, 2009, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Squid on June 01, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
what's wrong with people :argh!:
They're people... this is how people behave. We can dream about a world where people are sane and driven by thinking and considering... but its just not the way we monkeys are wired. If someone says "THAT GUYS IS AN ENEMY OF OUR TRIBE" some monkey is probably gonna go gunning for the guy. Especially, if its easy and there isn't much likelihood that the guy will gun back. For example, almost no red-blooded pickup driving, flag waving mook went running off to Afghanistan to take out Bin Laden for us... but they're more than happy to shoot some schmuck in the head while he's at Church.
That kind of thing is what the Sicilians used to do... you know to maintain the "We are batshit crazy motherfuckers" kind of vibe.
Evangelical Christians, the Sicilians of the 21st century. :lulz:
motherfucking bullshit.
I'M people, and this is NOT how i behave.
these are not people, they're "god's robots" or somesuch shit.
Pffft, you're not a people, you're Discordian.
:lulz:
Allow me to restate:
Mosbunal humans behave this way at least sombunal of the time when it comes to their self-identified tribe. Since the days of the One True God, Gathexixa who lived in the lake, humans have fought each other over His Will. Sure, these days some call him YHVH, some call him Adoni, some call him Allah, some call him Jesus... but some very scary number of them still have no issue with sending the unbelievers to the bottom of the lake to meet Gathexixa personally.
The idiot that shot Tiller was part of a very hate filled tribe, a tribe that uses words like mass murder and "Nazi" to demonize their enemies. Once a truly faithful member of the tribe recognizes that the tribe is threatened by a DEMON/NAZI/COMMIE/PINKO/ABORTION DOCTOR they no longer see the enemy as anything other than a DEMON/NAZI/COMMIE/PINKO/ABORTION DOCTOR... then its easy to kill them because they aren't HUMAN. Governments do this shit all the time... Jap, Gook, Kraut, Commie, any term to make the enemy something less than human... then you make sure that the tribe's safety/security/freedoms/way of life are being threatened by this evil 'not human" and BAM a few hundred thousand people, who would normally act sane, go running off to kill.
The methods and psychology are the same, just on a much smaller scale.
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone. Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible. It seems obvious that the Religious Leaders that manipulate the message bear a great responsibility for these sorts of actions. It reminds me of what Jesus supposedly saw in Israel during the 1st century. The Pharisees and Saducees had warped the Law to the point that it had become a heavy burden on the people... they made a big show of prayers and piety, while those who followed their teachings were confused, stressed and often broke out in random acts of stupid violence. Sort of like a dog that you have no consistent training with, it never knows when its being good or bad, it just gets random treatings or beatings and everyone is surprised in it suddenly mauls a baby.
I'm looking forward to Bill O' Reilly looking shocked and confused how his constant personal attacks and hate inciting speech against George Tiller would lead to his murder.
Surprising how things work like that
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Finish the quote:
Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible.In every case of violence that was OK with YHVH, it was under his direction, or at least under the direction of whatever spag he put in charge. YHVH was not one for independent thinkers/actors. In fact, cases where someone did something then said "But, I thought God would like it" usually got their asses killed.
YHVH was a psychopath, but he was a controlling psychopath.
Besides, if one is a Christian, they accept the New Covenant, not the Law Covenant and without the Law covenant there is no standard to judge another against (Judge not ...). The Bible is not a good book, but you have to warp things quite a bit to get support for this kind of bullshit.
Quote from: The Pariah on June 02, 2009, 03:45:12 PM
I'm looking forward to Bill O' Reilly looking shocked and confused how his constant personal attacks and hate inciting speech against George Tiller would lead to his murder.
Surprising how things work like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuXrBxHbFAk
there's the clip of his response
the whole segment is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq0Au-QRvGc
(poor video quality!)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Finish the quote: Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible.
In every case of violence that was OK with YHVH, it was under his direction, or at least under the direction of whatever spag he put in charge. YHVH was not one for independent thinkers/actors. In fact, cases where someone did something then said "But, I thought God would like it" usually got their asses killed.
YHVH was a psychopath, but he was a controlling psychopath.
Besides, if one is a Christian, they accept the New Covenant, not the Law Covenant and without the Law covenant there is no standard to judge another against (Judge not ...). The Bible is not a good book, but you have to warp things quite a bit to get support for this kind of bullshit.
Well, YHVH does seem to take his time in punishing people who do such things. I mean, I would take that as tacit support, if I were a fundamentalist. And everyone knows the secular Federal government is an arm of Satan and so getting arrested and tried and convicted and ass-raped in prison doesn't count.
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Finish the quote: Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible.
In every case of violence that was OK with YHVH, it was under his direction, or at least under the direction of whatever spag he put in charge. YHVH was not one for independent thinkers/actors. In fact, cases where someone did something then said "But, I thought God would like it" usually got their asses killed.
YHVH was a psychopath, but he was a controlling psychopath.
Besides, if one is a Christian, they accept the New Covenant, not the Law Covenant and without the Law covenant there is no standard to judge another against (Judge not ...). The Bible is not a good book, but you have to warp things quite a bit to get support for this kind of bullshit.
Well, YHVH does seem to take his time in punishing people who do such things. I mean, I would take that as tacit support, if I were a fundamentalist. And everyone knows the secular Federal government is an arm of Satan and so getting arrested and tried and convicted and ass-raped in prison doesn't count.
Well, YHVH hasn't punished anyone since Ananias and Saphira. Under the 'new covenant' with Jesus that sort of direct punishment went away for the most part. YHVH could judge Jews immediately, because they were all in contract with him via the Moasic Law. With the New Covenant, Jesus death was supposed to 'cover over' the sins of his followers so that they would not be judged until Judgment Day. Indeed, the Christians that claimed Tiller should die, those that rejoiced because he 'went to hell', according to the Covenant, have signed their own death warrant. If they as a sinful human pass judgment on another sinful human, rather than forgiving them... then God can (and will) do the same to them. (See Jesus parable of the Debtors).
The Bible is a ridiculous book, but vigilante judgment and execution is a direct ticket to the Left side of God, and a one way drop into the furnace with the weeds and the goats.
Of course, most of the evangelical movement is based on insanity rather than scripture, so the point it likely moot.
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 12:19:37 PM
US journalist and expert on the far-right David Neiwert's co-writer, Sara Robinson, has a post up about Tiller on his blog:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/05/jesuss-jihadis.html
Thanks for introducing me to this blog, btw. They and Right Wing Watch have been doing a great job of covering right wing domestic terrorists lately.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
Pffft, you're not a people, you're Discordian.
:lulz:
Allow me to restate:
Mosbunal humans behave this way at least sombunal of the time when it comes to their self-identified tribe. Since the days of the One True God, Gathexixa who lived in the lake, humans have fought each other over His Will. Sure, these days some call him YHVH, some call him Adoni, some call him Allah, some call him Jesus... but some very scary number of them still have no issue with sending the unbelievers to the bottom of the lake to meet Gathexixa personally.
The idiot that shot Tiller was part of a very hate filled tribe, a tribe that uses words like mass murder and "Nazi" to demonize their enemies. Once a truly faithful member of the tribe recognizes that the tribe is threatened by a DEMON/NAZI/COMMIE/PINKO/ABORTION DOCTOR they no longer see the enemy as anything other than a DEMON/NAZI/COMMIE/PINKO/ABORTION DOCTOR... then its easy to kill them because they aren't HUMAN. Governments do this shit all the time... Jap, Gook, Kraut, Commie, any term to make the enemy something less than human... then you make sure that the tribe's safety/security/freedoms/way of life are being threatened by this evil 'not human" and BAM a few hundred thousand people, who would normally act sane, go running off to kill.
The methods and psychology are the same, just on a much smaller scale.
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone. Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible. It seems obvious that the Religious Leaders that manipulate the message bear a great responsibility for these sorts of actions. It reminds me of what Jesus supposedly saw in Israel during the 1st century. The Pharisees and Saducees had warped the Law to the point that it had become a heavy burden on the people... they made a big show of prayers and piety, while those who followed their teachings were confused, stressed and often broke out in random acts of stupid violence. Sort of like a dog that you have no consistent training with, it never knows when its being good or bad, it just gets random treatings or beatings and everyone is surprised in it suddenly mauls a baby.
TITCM. Fundamentalists (of any religion) scare the ever-loving shit out of me. :x
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 05:16:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Finish the quote: Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible.
In every case of violence that was OK with YHVH, it was under his direction, or at least under the direction of whatever spag he put in charge. YHVH was not one for independent thinkers/actors. In fact, cases where someone did something then said "But, I thought God would like it" usually got their asses killed.
YHVH was a psychopath, but he was a controlling psychopath.
Besides, if one is a Christian, they accept the New Covenant, not the Law Covenant and without the Law covenant there is no standard to judge another against (Judge not ...). The Bible is not a good book, but you have to warp things quite a bit to get support for this kind of bullshit.
Well, YHVH does seem to take his time in punishing people who do such things. I mean, I would take that as tacit support, if I were a fundamentalist. And everyone knows the secular Federal government is an arm of Satan and so getting arrested and tried and convicted and ass-raped in prison doesn't count.
Well, YHVH hasn't punished anyone since Ananias and Saphira. Under the 'new covenant' with Jesus that sort of direct punishment went away for the most part. YHVH could judge Jews immediately, because they were all in contract with him via the Moasic Law. With the New Covenant, Jesus death was supposed to 'cover over' the sins of his followers so that they would not be judged until Judgment Day. Indeed, the Christians that claimed Tiller should die, those that rejoiced because he 'went to hell', according to the Covenant, have signed their own death warrant. If they as a sinful human pass judgment on another sinful human, rather than forgiving them... then God can (and will) do the same to them. (See Jesus parable of the Debtors).
The Bible is a ridiculous book, but vigilante judgment and execution is a direct ticket to the Left side of God, and a one way drop into the furnace with the weeds and the goats.
Of course, most of the evangelical movement is based on insanity rather than scripture, so the point it likely moot.
I always figured that evangelical/fundamentalist adherence to scripture was 0.000000000001% at the most whilst some kind of inherent cognitive dissonance allows them to believe it's 110%
So the words "kill" and "unbeliever" appear, mixed up in the million or so other words that the fundie doesn't see when they open their holy manuscript and lo and behold it says "kill the unbeliever" right there in the bible which was written by god (doesn't even fucking say that in the book but what the fuck do facts have to do with it?)
Let's face it we're not dealing with rational human beings here. Logic and reality and bullshit like that do not apply in any way shape or form. The mere concept that there is a book which was handwritten by a giant invisible nazi is more than enough for someone who is psychologically predisposed to needing an excuse to burn niggers or gays or anything else his tenuous grip on reality can't stomach. Facts or what it actually says in the book are utterly irrelevent.
Maybe people just need an "logical" excuse to satisfy their taste for blood...
We is in your genes, killin your baby killers!
/
(http://abidedknowing.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/cain__abel.jpg)
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 05:16:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 02, 2009, 04:12:17 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2009, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 02, 2009, 03:35:47 PM
It's still horrifying though. I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible and thinking that God would want them to shoot anyone.
You serious? I can't imagine anyone reading the OT, believing it as literally true and not being predisposed to killing the infidels. Yahweh was a fucking textbook psychopath ffs!
Finish the quote: Random acts of violence, perpetrated by a vigilante is not supported anywhere, even in the most violent and disturbing bits of the Bible.
In every case of violence that was OK with YHVH, it was under his direction, or at least under the direction of whatever spag he put in charge. YHVH was not one for independent thinkers/actors. In fact, cases where someone did something then said "But, I thought God would like it" usually got their asses killed.
YHVH was a psychopath, but he was a controlling psychopath.
Besides, if one is a Christian, they accept the New Covenant, not the Law Covenant and without the Law covenant there is no standard to judge another against (Judge not ...). The Bible is not a good book, but you have to warp things quite a bit to get support for this kind of bullshit.
Well, YHVH does seem to take his time in punishing people who do such things. I mean, I would take that as tacit support, if I were a fundamentalist. And everyone knows the secular Federal government is an arm of Satan and so getting arrested and tried and convicted and ass-raped in prison doesn't count.
Well, YHVH hasn't punished anyone since Ananias and Saphira. Under the 'new covenant' with Jesus that sort of direct punishment went away for the most part. YHVH could judge Jews immediately, because they were all in contract with him via the Moasic Law. With the New Covenant, Jesus death was supposed to 'cover over' the sins of his followers so that they would not be judged until Judgment Day. Indeed, the Christians that claimed Tiller should die, those that rejoiced because he 'went to hell', according to the Covenant, have signed their own death warrant. If they as a sinful human pass judgment on another sinful human, rather than forgiving them... then God can (and will) do the same to them. (See Jesus parable of the Debtors).
The Bible is a ridiculous book, but vigilante judgment and execution is a direct ticket to the Left side of God, and a one way drop into the furnace with the weeds and the goats.
Of course, most of the evangelical movement is based on insanity rather than scripture, so the point it likely moot.
I always figured that evangelical/fundamentalist adherence to scripture was 0.000000000001% at the most whilst some kind of inherent cognitive dissonance allows them to believe it's 110%
So the words "kill" and "unbeliever" appear, mixed up in the million or so other words that the fundie doesn't see when they open their holy manuscript and lo and behold it says "kill the unbeliever" right there in the bible which was written by god (doesn't even fucking say that in the book but what the fuck do facts have to do with it?)
Let's face it we're not dealing with rational human beings here. Logic and reality and bullshit like that do not apply in any way shape or form. The mere concept that there is a book which was handwritten by a giant invisible nazi is more than enough for someone who is psychologically predisposed to needing an excuse to burn niggers or gays or anything else his tenuous grip on reality can't stomach. Facts or what it actually says in the book are utterly irrelevent.
This Is The Correct Martyrcycle :fnord:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 02, 2009, 04:00:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuXrBxHbFAk
there's the clip of his response
How the fuck is honest reporting launching personal attack like "Tiller the Baby Killer" and otherwise destroying the reputation of a PRIVATE citizen.
Of course O' Reilly Himself didn't pull the trigger nor is he going to or should be held legally accountable but destroying the reputation of a private citizen for doing something that is not illegal nor (I would think) against his conscience is the wrong thing to do especially with having a nationwide podium that addresses some of the more volatile and violent segments of the population.
:argh!: :argh!: :argh!:
I think its a good lesson to remember to take one's name into account when choosing an occupation.
That is assuming that you dont' want to be an easy media target. I wonder if this poor fella's name wasn't so close to the word 'killer' he would still be alive today.
For instance: i have to make my backyard level so that we can add rocks to make a nice fire pit. For marshmallows, hotdogs, chats and laughs. Now, i can't even think about the preparatory leveling of the ground without associating my Black & Decker ground 'tiller' with the phrase 'baby killer'.
All summer long, now, i'm going to remember that the source of our heat and warm tummies had something, albeit remotely, to do with the slaughter of innocents.
Thanks, Bill O'Reilly, thank you for warming my summer, schmuck.
The only difference between nuts is the tree they are on. These particular nuts are on the gospel tree. If they weren't on this tree they would most certainly be on another nut bearing tree.
I like that, Hawk. It fits.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on June 01, 2009, 05:00:36 PM
And just in case you still had a shred of respect for humanity:
Tweets of Hate: The Crazy Right Twitters About the Assassination of Dr Tiller.
http://carnalnation.com/content/7628/3/tweets-hate-crazy-right-twitters-about-murder-dr-tiller
QuoteA small sample of the hatred expressed on Twitter after the assassination of Dr Tiller:
* Crap, I always forgot hashtags. I'm happy Tiller's dead. - Jennifer Waite, Selah, Washington
* UPDATE... Doctor George Tiller was aborted today in his 204th trimester - aren't paybacks a bitch - Punch
* oh HAPPY DAY! Tiller the baby killer is DEAD! - Samantha Pelch
* George Tiller the baby killer was shot dead this morning. God bless the gunmen who hopefully won't be caught. - readnwatchchris, Creedmor. NC
* was George Tiller the baby killers brain scrambled the way he scrambled full term fetuses.. one can only hope - Brad S
* Infamous baby killer George Tiller gunned down at (irony) church. Why do I not feel sorry for him? Have fun at Judgment Day. - James Fiddler
* tiller the baby killer shot dead...wow. is it insensitive of me to say what goes around comes around? - Brad M. Negulescu Cleveland.
* George Tiller the Baby Killer shot dead. May he rot in Hell. - Amy Strong
* Tiller Baby Killer was shot and killed this morning Justice has been served. - Shirl Ledeux
* Thinking about "Tiller the baby killer" He now knows the wages of sin is death. - Dianne McDowell
* May Tiller rot in Hell , infanticide is the murder of babies, he WAS a provider of death like Hitler, Bundy the list goes on.... - Dennis, A People Voip Company
* Burn in hell George Tiller - mikedanben Sparta, NJ (41.005501,-74.672)
* No need to pray for George Tiller. We know he went straight to hell!!!!! - Laurie D. Bailey Olive Branch, MS
* Good ridence to Tiller - babies will not be murdered because he is now gone. Wonder how he likes hell! - Jay Emess, Southern, NJ
* Karma is a beautiful thing. Cheers to the hero who sent George Tiller where he belongs... straight to hell. - Matthew Kamar
* omg!george tiller abortion dr. was killed n his church parkn lot! hell yea! - Sarah Gulick, Wtichita, Ks
* George Tiller: Burning in Hell for the last three hours. - darthdilbert Kettering, Oh
* Hmm, I know it's wrong, but I feel like the Late-Term Abortion Doctor George Tiller, got what was he deserved..... - Mary Keogh London England
* Boom Boom Boom. George Tiller was served a very very late term abortion this morning. - Chad Coleman, coeur d'alene, Id
:horrormirth:
Fuck people :x
HURR DURR LETS CALL IT MURDER TO GIVE WOMEN THE RIGHTS TO THEIR BODY HURRRRR
Quote from: Hawk on June 03, 2009, 01:37:33 AM
The only difference between nuts is the tree they are on. These particular nuts are on the gospel tree. If they weren't on this tree they would most certainly be on another nut bearing tree.
:mittens:
Well said Hawk!
Thanks guys.
Quote from: Hawk on June 03, 2009, 01:37:33 AM
The only difference between nuts is the tree they are on. These particular nuts are on the gospel tree. If they weren't on this tree they would most certainly be on another nut bearing tree.
I am so totally stealing that.
So, these people are basically saying that they have no faith in their god to dish out punishment, since they believe they need to dish it out themselves.
They sound like heathens to me.
The correct way to kill someone in cold blood and use your fairy story of choice to justify it is to claim "holy vessel" status. This allows the deranged fucking psycho pious christian to completely ignore the fact that they are actually the problem.
I saw a passing reference to Tiller in Tom Frank's What's the matter with America? (sold in America as What's the matter with Kanas), which I was reading in the library today.
Which was kind of sad.
But Franks had an interesting take on what was generally going on in Middle America, which I had only heard second hand up until today, but which I more or less agree with. He describes what is going on as a sort of inverse populism - that is, populism without the economic element. He also describes a "backlash industry", which uses populist methods and techniques, but in the service of economic goals which do nothing to satisfy the actual social greivances of the inverted populists. This backlash is people like Ann Coulter and the like, who magnify and hype social issues designed to cause a divide between a supposed liberal elite which mocks the Heartland and true American (ie religious) values. The issues never get resolved, because for all their bluster the GOP are a mostly upper class, suburban and educated leadership (though infiltration from this populist element is gaining power - see Sarah Palin for more). Because they are never resolved, these populists get more and more hysterical, conspiratorial and fanatical.
Its not hard to see why violence erupts in such situations.
That the Democrats have basically abandoned their populist roots does not help either, as it cedes the ground to religious and right-wing organizations, some sensible, but far too many interested in seeing the poor and less powerful in society actively work against their own interests. And far too many religious groups who, knowingly or otherwise, continue such a state of affairs.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
I saw a passing reference to Tiller in Tom Frank's What's the matter with America? (sold in America as What's the matter with Kanas), which I was reading in the library today.
Which was kind of sad.
But Franks had an interesting take on what was generally going on in Middle America, which I had only heard second hand up until today, but which I more or less agree with. He describes what is going on as a sort of inverse populism - that is, populism without the economic element. He also describes a "backlash industry", which uses populist methods and techniques, but in the service of economic goals which do nothing to satisfy the actual social greivances of the inverted populists. This backlash is people like Ann Coulter and the like, who magnify and hype social issues designed to cause a divide between a supposed liberal elite which mocks the Heartland and true American (ie religious) values. The issues never get resolved, because for all their bluster the GOP are a mostly upper class, suburban and educated leadership (though infiltration from this populist element is gaining power - see Sarah Palin for more). Because they are never resolved, these populists get more and more hysterical, conspiratorial and fanatical.
Its not hard to see why violence erupts in such situations.
That the Democrats have basically abandoned their populist roots does not help either, as it cedes the ground to religious and right-wing organizations, some sensible, but far too many interested in seeing the poor and less powerful in society actively work against their own interests. And far too many religious groups who, knowingly or otherwise, continue such a state of affairs.
Very nice assessment!
I agree with the assessment of the Dems... 'Liberal' values, should be a very Christian sort of thing... feeding the poor, caring for the elderly, orphans, widows etc... that's all very Jesus kinda stuff. In fact, before the 80's a large number of Christians apparently claimed to be Democrats. Only with the rise of the Moral Majority and the hyperfocus on abortion, homosexual rights etc. did the GOP suddenly become the group for Jesus. The Dems need to start quoting scripture when discussing national healthcare.
But then they would piss off the loud nutters in the atheist camp.
Franks talks about that a lot in reference to the 1890s-1930s populist movements in the Mid-West. William Jennings Bryan and all that. Also, in Kansas in particular, the abolitionist movement (which was very popular with the New York and east coast liberal set of its day).
Of course, he also points out the Christians involved in such things then are usually the more liberal churches now, like the Quakers (ignore the Nixon in the closet), the ones denounced by such conservative Christians for their apparently non-Christian beliefs.
Interestingly, he spends a few pages talking about the religious conservatives particular attitude to poverty. They've actually grown to love the whip, in a way. Almost all the political organizers on the religious right are volunteers who do this in their spare time. One of the most powerful men in Kansas in this movement he speaks to works full time in a factory, on the line assembling parts. They believe their poverty, Spartan way of life and denial of earthly pleasures is proof of their moral righteousness and their superiority over the effete liberal elites, and their RINO friends.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2009, 04:24:37 PM
Franks talks about that a lot in reference to the 1890s-1930s populist movements in the Mid-West. William Jennings Bryan and all that. Also, in Kansas in particular, the abolitionist movement (which was very popular with the New York and east coast liberal set of its day).
Of course, he also points out the Christians involved in such things then are usually the more liberal churches now, like the Quakers (ignore the Nixon in the closet), the ones denounced by such conservative Christians for their apparently non-Christian beliefs.
Interestingly, he spends a few pages talking about the religious conservatives particular attitude to poverty. They've actually grown to love the whip, in a way. Almost all the political organizers on the religious right are volunteers who do this in their spare time. One of the most powerful men in Kansas in this movement he speaks to works full time in a factory, on the line assembling parts. They believe their poverty, Spartan way of life and denial of earthly pleasures is proof of their moral righteousness and their superiority over the effete liberal elites, and their RINO friends.
Very interesting observations. I need to read that book.
Its been out a good five years now...your local library may even have a copy.
He also seems to have wrote a book on the commodification of rebellion, which, going by some of his off the cuff remarks in What's the matter with Kansas? could be interesting. Not sure of the exact name, but might be something to look out for. Some of his observations mirrored those from the book link I posted in O:MF and that Cram remarked on.
That's awesome stuff, Cain, and I agree with that assessment 100%. I see it all the fucking time, esp in my own redneck-based family. It's very very tough to find any middle ground for the paranoid, because the talking bobbleheads on both sides pay lip service but never seem to make any headway in solving a damned thing. Their separate agendas are always working against any sort of real solution, and it's very fucking frustrating to even TRY to convince those who are lured into and swallow wholesale the BULLSHIT that they are being PLAYED.
(here's where it gets long, feel free to stop here, tl;dr, etc.:) My parents are prime examples. They both came from Dixie-crat type liberal families. My father, So Cal boy all the way, but his parents' antecedents were Catholic and midwestern on his dad's side and Hollywood corruption on his mother's. No educational background at all, either.
With my mother, her parents are Dixiecrats with Bible thumping lifestyle. Reagan Dems. My mother's people were in turns part-racist, part-preacher. My grandfather went into the navy at an early age to escape poverty (no education there, either), and my grandmother, the most pragmatic of all of them (father a farmer, mother a school teacher) is self-educated and got her degree at the age of 65.
My parents themselves have this strange distrust of the Ivory Tower(tm), and they ridicule the educated with fervor. They sound like a rap sheet of talking points from Rush Limbaugh. Both of them have high school degrees only. They are so ripe for the prejudicial, calculating manipulation and downright powergrabbing agenda of the rightwing local and national politics. My father now (with just a smidgen of chagrin) admits that the politics he has supported for years (with $$$$ sometimes) are the very same that put him in prison.
My mother, who's been reduced to severe poverty after being a millionaire's wife, is a two-headed hydra. On the one hand, she wants to be treated specially by the government, because she has no formal education, no job experience, and the government took all her husband's ill-gotten gains from her. So why not give her the free ride everyone else should get, right? Yet she'll rail against the so-called welfare mothers, the higher taxes and anything else that would make sense for someone who would love to take advantage of anything offered to her through the gummament.
So of course they still cling, to the Conservative platform and the "Family Values" that those asshole Republicans and their talking heads shove down their listeners' and constituents' throats. The REALITY of my parents' situation just doesn't seem to compute. They have no shame in it, because they have THE BIBLE on their side. :| (Yes, I come from at times very stupid, hard-headed people.)
It's nuts. When you use religion and fear and extreme poverty to whip people up into this war-like mentality...well, you get the goddammed Taliban is what you get. But no amount of comparison will sway the zealots. They are the so-called RIGHTEOUS.
Which both repels me and makes me fear how far they will go.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2009, 03:34:43 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 03, 2009, 01:37:33 AM
The only difference between nuts is the tree they are on. These particular nuts are on the gospel tree. If they weren't on this tree they would most certainly be on another nut bearing tree.
I am so totally stealing that.
Take it!
Quote from: Jenne on June 05, 2009, 07:04:30 PM
My mother, who's been reduced to severe poverty after being a millionaire's wife, is a two-headed hydra. On the one hand, she wants to be treated specially by the government, because she has no formal education, no job experience, and the government took all her husband's ill-gotten gains from her. So why not give her the free ride everyone else should get, right? Yet she'll rail against the so-called welfare mothers, the higher taxes and anything else that would make sense for someone who would love to take advantage of anything offered to her through the gummament.
:lulz: Sounds exactly like the Craig T. Nelson rant on the Glen Beck Show I posted the other day. "The government is eeevvvill and no one should have to pay taxes. Everyone should be self-relient. I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No."
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on June 05, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Quote from: Jenne on June 05, 2009, 07:04:30 PM
My mother, who's been reduced to severe poverty after being a millionaire's wife, is a two-headed hydra. On the one hand, she wants to be treated specially by the government, because she has no formal education, no job experience, and the government took all her husband's ill-gotten gains from her. So why not give her the free ride everyone else should get, right? Yet she'll rail against the so-called welfare mothers, the higher taxes and anything else that would make sense for someone who would love to take advantage of anything offered to her through the gummament.
:lulz: Sounds exactly like the Craig T. Nelson rant on the Glen Beck Show I posted the other day. "The government is eeevvvill and no one should have to pay taxes. Everyone should be self-relient. I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No."
Yup. It's a sickness, it really is. And you'd think spelling it out or education would help. But since they are always right and they are suspicious of anything that comes from a university...you know how left-wing those places can be!...yeah, it's a bloody-forehead-against-wall proposition.
Franks also noted that unlike the moderate Republican elite, many of these people did not have University educations.
The Republicans set up this beast to garner votes, with no real intention to ever follow up on their promises. And now, the monster they created is shambling off to the nearest village, shouting "braaaaaaaaaains....". They saw the promises were never being kept, so they infiltrated the party en masse and moved it way to the right.
They almost deserve to be run out of the Party by the Palinista.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2009, 08:47:40 PM
Franks also noted that unlike the moderate Republican elite, many of these people did not have University educations.
The Republicans set up this beast to garner votes, with no real intention to ever follow up on their promises. And now, the monster they created is shambling off to the nearest village, shouting "braaaaaaaaaains....". They saw the promises were never being kept, so they infiltrated the party en masse and moved it way to the right.
They almost deserve to be run out of the Party by the Palinista.
Palinista
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/07/AR2009060701207.html
QuoteThe man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.
A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week. But a leader of the anti-abortion movement derided the accused shooter as "a fruit and a lunatic."
Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he's being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago.
"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said. When asked by the AP what he meant and if he was referring to another shooting, he refused to elaborate further.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=22277
QuoteSince there is no doubt that we have a history of anti-abortion domestic terrorism, and since we know that evangelicals already support torture for everyone, when do we get to start waterboarding this guy? Does he have any children whose testicles can be crushed? Will we keep him up for weeks on end in stress positions in extremely cold rooms to get him to break? Beat him? All the right made a very good show of how shocked and appalled they were when this man killed Dr. Tiller, so surely they will not object. So when do we get to start torturing this guy?
:troll:
John Cole knows the wingnut mindset too well (being a former one). He knows there is no argument the wingnuts can proffer, except one that tacitly admits their approval of far-right terrorism.
^ That.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
That the Democrats have basically abandoned their populist roots does not help either, as it cedes the ground to religious and right-wing organizations, some sensible, but far too many interested in seeing the poor and less powerful in society actively work against their own interests. And far too many religious groups who, knowingly or otherwise, continue such a state of affairs.
Democrats were never populists, as such. Populism was brought into the tent in the late 1890s (1896?) and eaten alive. They appear to revive it when it's convenient but they never really subscribed to it.
Quote from: Jenne on June 05, 2009, 07:04:30 PM
My mother, who's been reduced to severe poverty after being a millionaire's wife, is a two-headed hydra. On the one hand, she wants to be treated specially by the government, because she has no formal education, no job experience, and the government took all her husband's ill-gotten gains from her. So why not give her the free ride everyone else should get, right? Yet she'll rail against the so-called welfare mothers, the higher taxes and anything else that would make sense for someone who would love to take advantage of anything offered to her through the gummament.
My late step grandfather was like that. My step dad calls it Great Depression republicanism and it sounds a little like your mother is a product of similar circumstances (wealth and ease abruptly replaced with grinding poverty).
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 09, 2009, 07:23:12 PM
Democrats were never populists, as such. Populism was brought into the tent in the late 1890s (1896?) and eaten alive. They appear to revive it when it's convenient but they never really subscribed to it.
I meant small p populism, as opposed to Populism the movement. And while I agree they never bought into it wholesale, their links with unions, such as the American Federation of Labor means they had an influence, even if it was small.
Refresh my memory on Democratic links to the AFL before about 1920, please?
The terrorists have won.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sns-ap-us-abortion-shooting,0,124499.story
QuoteGeorge Tiller's slaying has accomplished what anti-abortion activists had tried to do for decades: The doors to his Kansas clinic will shut forever.
The announcement Tuesday from Tiller's family was a tainted victory for the nation's anti-abortion movement. For years, it made Tiller the focus of protests, legislation and legal attacks. His death reignited a public debate over some abortion opponents' tactics and left many wondering how it will transform the abortion battleground.
Now that Tiller and his clinic are gone, the epicenter of the anti-abortion movement is less clear. Kansas has long been a lightning rod in the hot-button social issue — and in 2002, the leader of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue even moved his organization to the city to wage an aggressive campaign. With the clinic's doors closed, the movement loses one of its key protest symbols.
"Part of what is a tragedy about this is that violence has achieved its objective," said Nancy Northup, president of Center for Reproductive Rights. "There is a concerted, ongoing effort at harassment and restriction with an aim to make doctors leave the field."
Operations at Women's Health Care Services Inc. were suspended following Tiller's death last month. In a statement released by his attorneys, Tiller's family said relatives had chosen to honor him with charitable activities instead of reopening the clinic.
"We are proud of the service and courage shown by our husband and father and know that women's health care needs have been met because of his dedication and service," the family said in the statement. They did not elaborate on their reasoning to close.
:argh!:
They've won--for now. Someone will come along and pick up where he left off. Hopefully they'll have a less ominous name ("Smith the Baby Killer" just doesn't have the same ring, you know). Sort of like Evie when V died, maybe.
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 10, 2009, 04:50:47 AM
They've won--for now. Someone will come along and pick up where he left off. Hopefully they'll have a less ominous name ("Smith the Baby Killer" just doesn't have the same ring, you know). Sort of like Evie when V died, maybe.
I hope your right but their scare tactics are starting to work. If you were a doctor would you sign up for it knowing that there would be protesters at your office AND house 24/7 and that dozens of people would use your photo as target practice? It doesn't help that medical schools are refusing to teach the procedure.
If I had the math for a hard science, I'd do it. There's one other guy in the country who does it and I'd ask him to teach me. Or go out of the country to learn how, not only to flip the bird at the pro-life movement but because there's a genuine need for it. Abortion is not a choice sane women take lightly and even more so when it's so close to birth, but he clearly was doing business.
The point is moot, however, since I don't have the math.
I'm pretty sure there's someone else with my line of thinking AND the skills to carry it through.
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 10, 2009, 04:34:42 PM
If I had the math for a hard science, I'd do it. There's one other guy in the country who does it and I'd ask him to teach me. Or go out of the country to learn how, not only to flip the bird at the pro-life movement but because there's a genuine need for it. Abortion is not a choice sane women take lightly and even more so when it's so close to birth, but he clearly was doing business.
The point is moot, however, since I don't have the math.
I'm pretty sure there's someone else with my line of thinking AND the skills to carry it through.
I hear this sometimes and I don't understand... maybe you can explain.
Don't you just learn the math you need when you go into science? That's how we do it here... you can be a liberal arts major, and when you switch to the sciences, you just have to take a couple of extra math classes to catch up, and a few more as you go along. Do they handle it differently where you are? I've heard so many people say that they don't "have the math", and it sounds as if they've missed a window of opportunity that they can't return to.
What really doesnt help is your government not treating these actual terrorists like, you know, actual terrorists. And I dont mean waterboarding, but treating it like it was the action of a lone nut, instead of a political assassination based on religious fundamental beliefs that are shared by a large group of people living right in your country, a group of people that actively condoned and cheered at this assassination ... isn't this exactly the sort of terrorism your government should be protecting your people from?
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 10, 2009, 05:54:05 PM
What really doesnt help is your government not treating these actual terrorists like, you know, actual terrorists. And I dont mean waterboarding, but treating it like it was the action of a lone nut, instead of a political assassination based on religious fundamental beliefs that are shared by a large group of people living right in your country, a group of people that actively condoned and cheered at this assassination ... isn't this exactly the sort of terrorism your government should be protecting your people from?
I dunno, it certainly takes them a long ass time when they actually do go after the domestic terrorits. See The Unabomber and Eric Rudolph. Those fuckers were able to operate for years before our talented investigators finally found them. And the only reason they found the Unabomber was because his fucking brother turned him in. So yeah, in theory, it would be nice if they would actually put some effort into it, but it seems like there isn't much daylight between their action and inaction.
Quote from: Triple Zero on June 10, 2009, 05:54:05 PM
What really doesnt help is your government not treating these actual terrorists like, you know, actual terrorists. And I dont mean waterboarding, but treating it like it was the action of a lone nut, instead of a political assassination based on religious fundamental beliefs that are shared by a large group of people living right in your country, a group of people that actively condoned and cheered at this assassination ... isn't this exactly the sort of terrorism your government should be protecting your people from?
The Justice Dept is doing an investigation to see if there was someone manipulating Roeder but who knows if it will go anywhere. It does seem suspicious that a slightly mentally handicapped man with very little money was able to make numerous trips to Kansas City and be able to afford a gun. He has links to a couple of anti-abortion groups so there is a possibility that someone else was funding him and planted the idea into his head.
The part about all of this that really pisses me off is that the Department of Homeland Security had a report on right-wing domestic terrorism earlier this year that all but predicted this. And what happened? The right wing whined and cried long enough that the DHS retracted the report despite the fact that nothing in it was incorrect. Instead of taking a step back and wondering why they attract so many violent fuckheads the right wing did all they could to protect their terrorists.
Or the DHS is the one who gave him a gun.
:kingmeh:
Quote from: Nigel on June 10, 2009, 05:40:44 PM
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 10, 2009, 04:34:42 PM
If I had the math for a hard science, I'd do it. There's one other guy in the country who does it and I'd ask him to teach me. Or go out of the country to learn how, not only to flip the bird at the pro-life movement but because there's a genuine need for it. Abortion is not a choice sane women take lightly and even more so when it's so close to birth, but he clearly was doing business.
The point is moot, however, since I don't have the math.
I'm pretty sure there's someone else with my line of thinking AND the skills to carry it through.
I hear this sometimes and I don't understand... maybe you can explain.
Don't you just learn the math you need when you go into science? That's how we do it here... you can be a liberal arts major, and when you switch to the sciences, you just have to take a couple of extra math classes to catch up, and a few more as you go along. Do they handle it differently where you are? I've heard so many people say that they don't "have the math", and it sounds as if they've missed a window of opportunity that they can't return to.
I'm almost convinced I have discalcula. I have an incredible amount of trouble doing it. I double and triple check everything and still manage to screw up royally. I understand how to do it--hell, I can teach it--but I can't actually do it.
Quote from: Arafelis on June 10, 2009, 06:15:48 PM
Or the DHS is the one who gave him a gun.
Doubtful, given that as Iason has said, they did practically predict this.
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 10, 2009, 06:36:21 PM
Quote from: Nigel on June 10, 2009, 05:40:44 PM
Quote from: Laughtrack on June 10, 2009, 04:34:42 PM
If I had the math for a hard science, I'd do it. There's one other guy in the country who does it and I'd ask him to teach me. Or go out of the country to learn how, not only to flip the bird at the pro-life movement but because there's a genuine need for it. Abortion is not a choice sane women take lightly and even more so when it's so close to birth, but he clearly was doing business.
The point is moot, however, since I don't have the math.
I'm pretty sure there's someone else with my line of thinking AND the skills to carry it through.
I hear this sometimes and I don't understand... maybe you can explain.
Don't you just learn the math you need when you go into science? That's how we do it here... you can be a liberal arts major, and when you switch to the sciences, you just have to take a couple of extra math classes to catch up, and a few more as you go along. Do they handle it differently where you are? I've heard so many people say that they don't "have the math", and it sounds as if they've missed a window of opportunity that they can't return to.
I'm almost convinced I have discalcula. I have an incredible amount of trouble doing it. I double and triple check everything and still manage to screw up royally. I understand how to do it--hell, I can teach it--but I can't actually do it.
Oh, OK... that makes sense.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/breaking_roeder_found_guilty_of_murdering_dr_georg.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TPMmuckraker+%28TPMmuckraker%29
QuoteA Kansas jury just found Scott Roeder guilty of first degree murder in the killing of abortion doctor George Tiller at his church last May.
The jury reportedly deliberated for less than hour. Roeder, an extremist anti-abortion activist, admitted on the stand that he killed Tiller.
Roeder was also found guilty on two counts of aggravated assault for pointing his gun at church ushers.
I'm surprised that it took more than half an hour for the jury to deliberate. Roeder admitted that he killed Tiller and that it was premeditated. It pisses me off that he tried to use the justified homicide defense. Almost as much as the fact that asshole Randall Terry was picketing outside (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/terry-head-kansas-justify-tillers-murder):
(http://www.rightwingwatch.org/sites/default/files/Terry_0.JPG)
Good god, the entire country is a madhouse.
I finally saw some anti abortion activists outside a local PP today. But they were old, and didn't seem to care THAT much.
What's the sentance for this asshole anyways?
Quote from: FTFASedgwick County District Judge Warren Wilbert set Roeder's sentencing for March 9. Roeder faces a maximum sentence of life in prison with a chance of parole after 25 years.
GOOD.
"Rule of law extremism" indeed.
Amazing how there were no pant-wetting rightwingers outside the court, protesting he didn't deserve a trial and should be sent to Guantanamo Bay and that by refusing to waterboard him Obama was endangering the nation.
Its almost like...like they only believe the brown terrorists should be subject to all those measures.
Quote from: Cain on January 31, 2010, 02:31:23 PM
Its almost like...like they only believe the brown terrorists should be subject to all those measures.
More to the point, they can't see anyone advocating their cause as a terrorist.
I bet the Islamic terrorists think the same way.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 01, 2010, 02:27:15 PM
a Domestic Terrorist
I've always wondered about this term, personally. It makes them sound, I dunno, almost harmless. "Oh yeah, I have a domestic terrorist come round every other Monday. He cleans the house, then bombs a nearby abortion clinic."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 01, 2010, 03:03:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 31, 2010, 02:31:23 PM
Its almost like...like they only believe the brown terrorists should be subject to all those measures.
More to the point, they can't see anyone advocating their cause as a terrorist.
I bet the Islamic terrorists think the same way.
There was a study published recently that showed political extremists have the same essential brain structure as each other. What they become extreme about is a matter of personal choice/upbringing/whatever, but beyond that particular point, they are exactly the same.
Not surprising, I know, but interesting. Explains why people like Carlos the Jackal and David Myatt have no problem switching from revolutionary socialism to Islamism (with the former) and from Satanism to Neo-Nazism to Islamism (with the latter). Same thing, different labels.