For shits and giggles:
Hello, friend. Welcome to the Golden Sphere of Possibility.
You think you just woke up here one day, right? Think again. It was your whole life that brought you to this. Fact is, you were born to be here. Go ahead, look around. I,Äôll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don,Äôt it? It doesn,Äôt even feel all that bad. But sometimes, you look through the shimmering concave arc, and you see all that you,Äôre missing. Abandoned ambitions. Best-left-forgotten dreams. Things that could-have-been. Here, put your palms up to the Sphere, touch the surface, let me show you something.
Feel that? That,Äôs all the books you,Äôve read. And that parabola over there is your adolescence. Look up: It,Äôs your CD collection. The pallet you woke up on? Your parents. Like I said, you were born to be here. It,Äôs your life, it,Äôs the golden encapsulation of your own existence. You painted yourself into this vessel.
So, now you,Äôre wondering why you feel that anything inside your sphere is possible, in your own life. Why now, why today, can you see the sloping sides of a Golden Sphere of Possibility, that you made for yourself? Because you stopped reacting inside of it, and took a couple of steps forward. You thought you could do the impossible, you tried to be self reliant, and bang. You smacked your head against the sphere.
What,Äôs that? Yeah. That,Äôs when the knowledge of the end of the Possible sets in. When you didn,Äôt know you were inside, everything was fine. But now that you know, you can see your entire, tired, call-and-response life stretch out before you, enclosed in this curved wall, this round capsule. Breathe, kid. It,Äôs just abject panic that you,Äôre feeling right now. Some even say that this is what death feels like: An unchanging life, immune and unfeeling to what you really want.
Look around you. Look at these golden, curved walls. The glimmering ceiling. The hard ground. That,Äôs your universe. That,Äôs the world you,Äôre going to be living in for the rest of your life here in the Sphere. You,Äôre going to live out your life only being able to do what,Äôs limited to what you have created. Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rifle/bell tower route. Either way, long or short, it,Äôll feel the same. Static, unchanging.
So, if you,Äôre interested, I,Äôd like to invite you pop the bubble,Ķ
Just turn around.
You do realise what you've just done don't you?
I wonder how Laz would take to this one.....
Same metephor, different words.
There is a limit to what you know, shaped by how you see it, physically, mentally, and emotionally.
See it as a prison, preventing you from what's outside your knowledge, see it as a sphere, containing all you know within it.
What's the difference?
nice..!
i like the way it starts all golden and shiny and suddenly you bump your head and it feels claustrophic.
just a few questions:
- why is adolescence a parabola?
- why did the reader wake up on a pallet (that's the wooden thing right?), shouldn't it be a warm floor or a matress maybe?
- when you say "put your palms on the sphere" i was imagining touching a bright ball (from the outside) only to realize later in the piece that it was infact describing a sphere from the inside. maybe that should be made a bit clearer from the start?
I know, ultimately, it's the same idea but I can see the Possibility vs. Prison being seized upon. They could seem to be different ideas.
I pretty much just altered it from this:
QuoteHey, kid.  Welcome to Prison.
You think you just woke up here one day, right? ¬†Think again. ¬†It was your whole life that brought you to this. ¬†Fact is, you were born to be here. ¬†Go ahead, look around. ¬†I,Äôll be here when you get back.
Looks smaller than it is, don,Äôt it? ¬†Sometimes, it doesn,Äôt even feel all that bad. ¬†But still,Ķ You look through those bars, and you see all that you,Äôre missing. ¬†Hopes. ¬†Dreams. ¬†What could-have-been. ¬†Here, put your palms up to the Black Iron, grab the bars, let me show you something.
Feel that? ¬†That,Äôs all the books you,Äôve read. ¬†And that entire wall over there is your adolescence. ¬†Look up: ¬†It,Äôs your CD collection. ¬†The floor you woke up on? ¬†Your parents. ¬†Like I said, you were born to be here. ¬†It,Äôs your life, it,Äôs the cold trap of your own existence. ¬†You painted yourself into a corner.
So, now you,Äôre wondering why you feel trapped here, in your own life. ¬†Why now, why today, can you see the bars of a Black Iron Prison that you made for yourself? ¬†Because you stopped reacting, and took a couple of steps forward. ¬†You thought you could do what you wanted, you tried to be self reliant, and bang. ¬†You smacked your head against the wall.
What,Äôs that? ¬†Yeah. ¬†That,Äôs when the claustrophobia sets in. ¬†When you didn,Äôt know you were trapped, everything was fine. ¬†But now that you know, you can see your entire, tired, monotonous life stretch out before you, trapped in these 4 walls, these 6 sides. ¬†Breathe, kid. ¬†It,Äôs just abject panic that you,Äôre feeling right now. ¬†Some even say that this is what death feels like: ¬†An unchanging life, immune and unfeeling to what you really want.
Look around you. ¬†Look at these cold, black bars. ¬†The colorless ceiling. ¬†The hard ground. ¬†That,Äôs your universe. ¬†That,Äôs the world you,Äôre going to be living in for the rest of your life here in Prison. ¬†You,Äôre going to live out your life in quiet desperation. ¬†Or, not so quiet if you decide to take the rifle/bell tower route. ¬†Either way, long or short, it,Äôll feel the same. ¬†Dead, unchanging. ¬†
So, if you,Äôre interested, I,Äôd like to invite you to a jailbreak,Ķ
Just turn around.
So, "parabola" was just another word for "curved wall", "Pallet" could be a bed of some kind, like in a monastary.  I see what you mean about being on the inside, though.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 13, 2007, 04:33:58 PM
I know, ultimately, it's the same idea but I can see the Possibility vs. Prison being seized upon.  They could seem to be different ideas. 
Well, that's an interesting side digression, in an optimist/pessimist way.
Angle: The BIP implies we are held back from knowledge, and we desire a way out.
The Sphere implies that we are comfortable in our ignorance.
in case there is any confusion, Black Iron Prison was never really intended to be the name of anything aside from that particular collection of writing
The Discordian Network was the name that was agreed upon on the last forum
but it never seemed to catch on
Yeah, well that's because the daffy running that forum sucked at picking out names.
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 04:40:19 PM
in case there is any confusion, Black Iron Prison was never really intended to be the name of anything aside from that particular collection of writing
The Discordian Network was the name that was agreed upon on the last forum
but it never seemed to catch on
And this is a good reminder too. Perhaps some of us, I'm including myself, cling to the BIP metaphor too much, maybe? Do we need a new name? Do we need a name?
We need new metaphors.
fuck yeah there needs to be a new name
either a new name or no name
because it is a gold sphere just as much as it is a black iron prison
maybe there needs to be a breakdown on what the name should represent, and then select from a list of potentials
and have this section re-named when its done
The Discordian Network worked for me
maybe it was too general
black iron prison was a great name for that pamphlet, but i see why people are getting the first impression they are getting
ah i thought it was one of these wooden things: (http://www.ci.schaumburg.il.us/vos.nsf/e2481b32d10b3b6786256be600778276/def61527049adcef86256d7c006bf4f0/$FILE/Pallet.jpg)
about the optimist pessimist way .. yes, at first i thought "but what if people will say, but i LIKE it in here, and i am not getting out either way" ?
prison makes people wish for a way out, a comfortable golden womb of existence just makes people want to snuggle in and make sure they've got enough for their comfort.
isn't the basic premise of what we are looking for in the BIP that it isn't comfortable? at least, not just right now but if i work just a little longer and harder i might get upgraded to the cell which doesn't leak from the ceiling?
about the name .. well i think LMNO has demonstrated here that some names work better than others ..
and the discordian network .. well .. it's not really catchy enough to catch on i think.
ah you're posting too fast!
ok new name ..
both a gold sphere and black iron prison ..
how about the Abstract Container ?
No emotional resonance
Basically, we should work with the BIP, Machine,Ñ¢, System¬Æ, CoN, et al until someone has a breakthrough that changes our perceptions. We can try to rephrase, re-parcel the concept & see what becomes of it, such as:
The Property Line
The End of our Fingertips
The Goldfish Bowl
The Frying Pan and the Fire
etc. Each of these new imaginings will lead to new ways of looking at the metaphor.
maps
occult studies
physics
revolving door
there are a lot of unique qualities to this 'organization' and the perspectives that come out of it
this place is like 'build-your-own-belief-system', and then launch it to see how far it goes
what has been developed here is pretty durable
could prolly stand up to apocalypse
as far as names go:
who knows
but its prolly best to ditch the BIP moniker soon
nothing but trouble at this point
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 04:53:59 PM
Basically, we should work with the BIP, Machine,Ñ¢, System¬Æ, CoN, et al until someone has a breakthrough that changes our perceptions. We can try to rephrase, re-parcel the concept & see what becomes of it, such as:
The Property Line
The End of our Fingertips
The Goldfish Bowl
The Frying Pan and the Fire
etc. Each of these new imaginings will lead to new ways of looking at the metaphor.
agreed
Hell, I stole my personal concept of the BIP from RAW's "reality grid" idea, so it's not like we're working with brand new material here.
grid is a good word
ambiguous
maybe we can run with that
satellite is a good word
base is a good word
mothership is a good word
sorry Abstract Container was a programming-related joke
uhm
Phase Space Constraints
no sorry
maybe something with Horizon .. event horizon
the term "desert of the real" was already coined by someone else, but may be recycled, too negative perhaps
grid horizon? too scifi-ey?
is there a name for the white bits on a map? or the stuff in RTS games that's called "fog of war" ?
also, LHX nothing but trouble? we at least need a short name to refer to it ourselves easily. might be hard to change from BIP now .. but maybe, why not, let's just go ahead and pick a new one.
"the shit that's happening."
TSTH
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 05:05:00 PM
sorry Abstract Container was a programming-related joke
uhm
Phase Space Constraints
no sorry
maybe something with Horizon .. event horizon
the term "desert of the real" was already coined by someone else, but may be recycled, too negative perhaps
grid horizon? too scifi-ey?
is there a name for the white bits on a map? or the stuff in RTS games that's called "fog of war" ?
also, LHX nothing but trouble? we at least need a short name to refer to it ourselves easily. might be hard to change from BIP now .. but maybe, why not, let's just go ahead and pick a new one.
fog is good too
BIP to us is not the same as BIP when it is seen for the first time
lol @ 'join the Black Iron Prison'
of course we will refer to it as BIP - prolly for a long time to come
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 05:06:10 PM
"the shit that's happening."
TSTH
lmao
TSTH
that aint awkward or nothin
tease-ith
tea-sith
test-h
Shit Happens In Time, then.
"Come! Join us in the SHIT!"
The sphere is a metaphor I've used from time to time to explain 3-4 dimensional perceptual limitations. When extending the famous 'flatland' metaphor from 3d- 4(+)d space. You kinda touched on it with the confusion over being inside and outside the sphere.
My angle is this: If you've only ever been inside the sphere you have absolutely no frame of reference to visualise a sphere from the outside. Therefore it's impossible to make the perceptual leap without actually leaving it. I'm sure I posted one of my short essays a while back but if memory serves you said you hadn't had time to look at it... hang on ...
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11074.15 couple of lines down
prolly got forgotten about as threads steamrollered on. I'm mentioning this because I think there's some stuff in there that could be useful with BIP Jailbreak stage.
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 05:06:10 PM"the shit that's happening."
i thought shit that is "happenin" was called "shizzle" ?
black iron shizzle
mental mechanics minimalizing mindlessness
Golden Paradise Concentration Camp
"Happy Funtime Dachau".
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 05:12:58 PM
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11074.15 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11074.15) couple of lines down
prolly got forgotten about as threads steamrollered on. I'm mentioning this because I think there's some stuff in there that could be useful with BIP Jailbreak stage.
fuck shit printer is broken.
sorry i'll read it later
i'll read it. someday. promise.
----
ok names.
"The All-In Hotel"
"Hadit Rehab"
Thinking Outside the Chao
Thinking Outside the Sacred Chao
Part 6
6/24
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 04:55:35 PM
this place is like 'build-your-own-belief-system', and then launch it to see how far it goes
I think you're on to something with 'build-your-own-belief-system' Many criticisms, including mine, of BIP in general is negative connotation, reactive vs proactive. 'Prison' is threat, 'build your own' is opportunity.
Suggest instruction manual for DIY belief.
Paradigm Schematics, Metaphysical Knitting Patterns, Black Iron Blueprints...
BIP exposed a problem. Sequel should be solution.
Go for it.
I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.
I think one of the reason we're sticking with the BIP so much is that alternate metaphors haven't really appeared, much.
Jailbreak is more the theme than BIP
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 06:33:55 PMSuggest instruction manual for DIY belief.
maybe we should create a kids toy out of it.
instead of the chemistry box, a build-your-own-religion toybox
or maybe a card game, does anyone know the game Fluxx?
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 06:38:08 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 06:33:55 PMSuggest instruction manual for DIY belief.
maybe we should create a kids toy out of it.
instead of the chemistry box, a build-your-own-religion toybox
thats exactly what i was thinking
thought Lego
build a better paradigm
maps
components
concepts
if broken down properly, this is viable
Reconstruction.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 06:33:55 PM
BIP exposed a problem. Sequel should be solution.
special care should be taken, however, to not "preach"
the solution.
Because the idea is that it is different for different people.  What might work for some, might cause heartache for others.  
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
Jailbreak is more the theme than BIP
I loved that bit in BIP - "You're invited to a Jailbreak" (paraphrased) but then it all got a bit "You're in Jail", "Jail is bad"... there were positive ideas but they tended to get drowned out in all the doom and gloom.
Could just call the sequel 'Jailbreak'
[brainfart]
What it looks like out there - a guide to recognising your escape vector
Black Iron Blueprints - some of the metaphysical diagrams that have been posted lately and probably before I even got here
Picking the locks on your own mind - psychological reverse engineering and paradigm shifting from beginner to advanced (mantras, koans, self hypnosis, deconditioning.. etc)
[/brainfart]
Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 06:44:43 PM
Reconstruction.
in a way, that seems to be what a lot of the writing here is about
offering a new observation and launching a new proposal to the common situation
(even tho it gets interpreted as 'us' = good, 'they' = bad)
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 13, 2007, 06:45:23 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 06:33:55 PM
BIP exposed a problem. Sequel should be solution.
special care should be taken, however, to not "preach" the solution.
Because the idea is that it is different for different people. What might work for some, might cause heartache for others.
i would go as far as to say that this is one of the components
its a cornerstone
without that, the system falls apart
I think observing our cell is one of the main keys.
seeing that it's there, and what it's made of begins to offer specific, personal solutions that one doesn't need to share, because it's specific to your BIP.
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 06:47:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 06:44:43 PM
Reconstruction.
in a way, that seems to be what a lot of the writing here is about
offering a new observation and launching a new proposal to the common situation
(even tho it gets interpreted as 'us' = good, 'they' = bad)
Well, its basically what we do. We take things apart and put them together again, in slightly different ways.
so basically it should contain a whole bunch of both good points and bad points of all the religions and ideas we (and anybody) can come up with.
christianity in all its virtues and flaws, same for buddhism, islam, discordianism, flying spaghetti-ism, paganism, cthulhu worship etc.
then the kid starts to play with it, put different concepts together, and notice what works and what not.
so for that to happen, there need to be "ethical challenge" cards in it. stuff that tests things like "does your current religious allow for raping 6 year old girls?", and more difficult challenges can become puzzling for example: hmm but to obtain all those "save the dolphins" points, i would need to play this "kill 11/12 of humanity" dogma-card?
also it should not really mention the actual religion the rule is lifted from.
and the ethical challenges should be up for discussion. even though there should be no difficulty about whether it's good or not to allow for molesting little children, it would also not be a good idea to state this explicitly in the rules from beforehand, since that would kind of go past on the idea of the game.
now, the problem of finding out if something is good or bad is a long long philosophical debate (ethics) which doesn't come up with a clear solution, so that would make it kinda hard.
the question "would you like to live in this prison" might solve it.
maybe kids could gain points by living their religion for a day or so.
also, maybe this game is not really for "kids"
It could easily be called "teach your kids to become sociopaths", however.
the question is:
can a model be constructed that is all-inclusive and stands up to everything that is thrown at it AND is pertinent in the realm of barstools?
barstool is a staple
not preaching to anybody who doesnt want to hear it is a staple
I would think that there would be a different approach between children and adults.  because, children are more of a blank slate, generally, as far as belief systems go.  I don't think you'd necessarily want to give kids all these ideas, good and bad, about religions, philosophies, etc.  At least, not literally.  I think with kids you need to do things on a more symbolic level.  For example, allowing a kid to do something, that while it seems totally incongruous to you, as long as it doesn't maim or kill them, just let them have at it.  For example, eating applesauce with their elbows.  
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
so basically it should contain a whole bunch of both good points and bad points of all the religions and ideas we (and anybody) can come up with.
christianity in all its virtues and flaws, same for buddhism, islam, discordianism, flying spaghetti-ism, paganism, cthulhu worship etc.
then the kid starts to play with it, put different concepts together, and notice what works and what not.
so for that to happen, there need to be "ethical challenge" cards in it. stuff that tests things like "does your current religious allow for raping 6 year old girls?", and more difficult challenges can become puzzling for example: hmm but to obtain all those "save the dolphins" points, i would need to play this "kill 11/12 of humanity" dogma-card?
also it should not really mention the actual religion the rule is lifted from.
and the ethical challenges should be up for discussion. even though there should be no difficulty about whether it's good or not to allow for molesting little children, it would also not be a good idea to state this explicitly in the rules from beforehand, since that would kind of go past on the idea of the game.
now, the problem of finding out if something is good or bad is a long long philosophical debate (ethics) which doesn't come up with a clear solution, so that would make it kinda hard.
the question "would you like to live in this prison" might solve it.
maybe kids could gain points by living their religion for a day or so.
also, maybe this game is not really for "kids"
we already seem to be playing this game
damn, i wish i had taped the discussion that was on book tv a few weeks ago.
it was a dialogue between Raiza Aslan - author of 'no god but god', Sam Harris - author of End Of Faith and recently Letter to a Christian Nation and John Kirshner, who has written a load of books, most recent being 'A History Of The End Of The World' which is about the Book Of Revelation and it's lasting cultural impact. (3 books that I've not yet bought but all on my 'to buy' list).
Aslan (the ironically named middle eastern expert on Islam) was saying that religious scriptures described a sacred, not a literal landscape and that there was good & bad that needed to be extrapolated in accordance with one's times and socio-politcal situation.
Harris was of the opinion that it was all religion was superstitious nonsense and that the Bible & Koran were probably the worst books one could use as a guide to life, given that both are filled with the most obscene brutality and dogma. He felt that given it's overwhelming profundity, Newton's Principia Mathematica was many times more relevant to the modern world than anything in the Koran.
Kirshner was the mediator of the discussion.
Sorry. Not sure how this is relevant. This thread just made me want to mention this. Though I think all these books would make interesting reading.
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 07:06:18 PM
the question is:
can a model be constructed that is all-inclusive and stands up to everything that is thrown at it AND is pertinent in the realm of barstools?
barstool is a staple
not preaching to anybody who doesnt want to hear it is a staple
"You get the Barstool. Do not pass Rebirth, do not collect 200 Karma Points."
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
so basically it should contain a whole bunch of both good points and bad points of all the religions and ideas we (and anybody) can come up with.
christianity in all its virtues and flaws, same for buddhism, islam, discordianism, flying spaghetti-ism, paganism, cthulhu worship etc.
Religion is bullshit. Religion is stagnant concrete beliefs. Religion IS a BIP. Assume that pointing out any good points of religion, regardless of whether they exist on not, is potentially dangerous by inference. Any religion is an example of closed paradigm and I'd only be comfortable discussing it in that context.
Change "religion" to "religion/philosophy/way of getting through this life without killing yourself".
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 07:06:18 PM
the question is:
can a model be constructed that is all-inclusive and stands up to everything that is thrown at it AND is pertinent in the realm of barstools?
barstool is a staple
not preaching to anybody who doesnt want to hear it is a staple
I'd say we'd be up for some sort of Nobel prize if we did come up with such a thing.  
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:11:38 PM
Change "religion" to "religion/philosophy/way of getting through this life without killing yourself".
I'll change it 'Crutch/Shackles' if that helps
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:11:38 PM
Change "religion" to "religion/philosophy/way of getting through this life without killing yourself".
I'll change it 'Crutch/Shackles' if that helps
Are you saying you have no belief systems, or that yours is as much of a crutch as everyone else's?
not having a belief system is as much a belief system as any other.
(and beliefs are just thoughts you keep having).
some belief systems are more concretized or explicitly stated than others.
"No Dogma is Dogma"?
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 06:56:34 PMIt could easily be called "teach your kids to become sociopaths", however.
certainly it would need work.
and of course there's the chance that while applying the work, the original idea becomes worthless as well.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:16:41 PM
not having a belief system is as much a belief system as any other.
(and beliefs are just thoughts you keep having).
some belief systems are more concretized or explicitly stated than others.
I believe this is the correct implement of mobility
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:14:47 PM
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 07:12:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:11:38 PM
Change "religion" to "religion/philosophy/way of getting through this life without killing yourself".
I'll change it 'Crutch/Shackles' if that helps
Are you saying you have no belief systems, or that yours is as much of a crutch as everyone else's?
My belief system is a scaffold. I can and actually make a point of, constantly adjusting it in light of new insight or just to try it out. I am aware that my beliefs are merely best working hypothesis at a given moment. It's really more like science than religion.
And so, why cannot that be a factor/aspect in the proposed Game?
You seem to imply that you take things you find/discover and use them as you see fit.
Why couldn't you deconstruct other belief systems for this purpose?
Methinks you kneejerked at the word "religion".
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 07:08:30 PMwe already seem to be playing this game
troof.
so what is again the change we're trying to create?
tell people how to play the game?
to make the game more interesting?
to stop spoiling the game for others?
to make them more skilled at playing?
or the cliche, to take it less serious
I say, to show the possibilities available.
nfor the love of christ, why do i never click 'stayed logged in' and instead get kicked out every 60 minutes??????
ok..
what i was going to say before the logging out (and taking my dog out for it's mid afternoon poop) was:
every person i've ever encountered who said 'nahh man, i'm a skeptic...i don't have any beliefs' have, invariably, had beliefs.
what they probably should say is:
"while i don't subscribe to any well known belief system as posited by religion or other philosophical construct, i do, nevertheless have beliefs that i have neither anaylyzed in any detail nor attempted to form into a cogent whole. as such, my psyche is a rag tag collection of whatever nonsense has drifted past my transom."
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 07:31:11 PM
Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 07:08:30 PMwe already seem to be playing this game
troof.
so what is again the change we're trying to create?
tell people how to play the game?
to make the game more interesting?
to stop spoiling the game for others?
to make them more skilled at playing?
or the cliche, to take it less serious
the game has no gameboard?
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:35:19 PM
nfor the love of christ, why do i never click 'stayed logged in' and instead get kicked out every 60 minutes??????
Profile options, FTW.
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:27:07 PM
Methinks you kneejerked at the word "religion".
Absolutely! I kneejerked at the whole notion of religion. As I expect many people will be inclined. By all means plagiarise the mainstream but give not one iota of credit to their camp. It's too much of a mental quagmire to be pointing at and saying "look over there". I'd rather say "dont look there" but if I had the choice I wouldn't even mention it.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:35:19 PM
nfor the love of christ, why do i never click 'stayed logged in' and instead get kicked out every 60 minutes??????
ok..
what i was going to say before the logging out (and taking my dog out for it's mid afternoon poop) was:
every person i've ever encountered who said 'nahh man, i'm a skeptic...i don't have any beliefs' have, invariably, had beliefs.
what they probably should say is:
"while i don't subscribe to any well known belief system as posited by religion or other philosophical construct, i do, nevertheless have beliefs that i have neither anaylyzed in any detail nor attempted to form into a cogent whole. as such, my psyche is a rag tag collection of whatever nonsense has drifted past my transom."
You sounded like Ayn Rand there. Not that thats always a bad thing (not in this case), but even so....
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:32:10 PM
I say, to show the possibilities available.
:potd:
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:35:19 PM
nfor the love of christ, why do i never click 'stayed logged in' and instead get kicked out every 60 minutes??????
did you at least click it this time?
never read any.
does ayn rand also rant about profile options and takes dogs out for poops?
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on February 13, 2007, 07:38:48 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:35:19 PM
nfor the love of christ, why do i never click 'stayed logged in' and instead get kicked out every 60 minutes??????
did you at least click it this time?
yes. :oops:
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:39:06 PM
never read any.
does ayn rand also rant about profile options and takes dogs out for poops?
No, but she did say
"As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, and disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation ,Äî or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place of where your mind,Äôs wings should have grown."
,Äî Ayn Rand, from Philosophy: Who Needs It?
She still talked absolute crap about the free market tho/
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 07:37:50 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 07:32:10 PM
I say, to show the possibilities available.
:potd:
hm not really good enough i think.
also needs an incentive for the people to explore the possibilities.
i'm afraid just showing the possibilities to them is not always going to be enough to make them actually explore them.
To realize there aren't too many negative consequences to exploring the many available options?
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 07:42:35 PM
also needs an incentive for the people to explore the possibilities.
we throw in a mirror?
Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:39:06 PM
never read any.
does ayn rand also rant about profile options and takes dogs out for poops?
No, but she did say
"As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, and disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation ,Äî or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place of where your mind,Äôs wings should have grown."
,Äî Ayn Rand, from Philosophy: Who Needs It?
thanks cain. that's cool.
is this a position that we all agree on? my experience of people claiming they have no beliefs is that they often will hold some of the wackiest, contradictory rubbish in their heads that would embarrass even devoutly religious people.
i like silly's idea of a scaffolding that he continues to tinker with. while i've never put it that succintly, i have felt in similar ways myself.
d/n/t the lazyness of people
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 07:44:33 PM
is this a position that we all agree on? my experience of people claiming they have no beliefs is that they often will hold some of the wackiest, contradictory rubbish in their heads that would embarrass even devoutly religious people.
i like silly's idea of a scaffolding that he continues to tinker with. while i've never put it that succintly, i have felt in similar ways myself.
There are two possible paradigms - Static and Fluid
Static is, by definition, already as good as it's ever going to get
Fluid is the only kind that has a chance of improving
The question we ask is "Do you want to improve your existence?" If the answer is "Yes" then the static paradigm IS the BIP. By adopting, and yourself actively designing, the fluid paradigm one has, in doing so replaced the BIP with a bunch of building blocks.
... Ding dong the witch is dead
I think I just had a knee-jerk reaction to a bit of dualistic thinking in the above post...
i never felt BIP was static.
i mean, if a person is unaware of BIP, their BIP is still being changed & shaped by their experiences.
however, i think that becoming aware of the BIP metaphor means that a person chooses to modify their cell:
a) more quickly
b) consciously (and this is probably the most important bit)
some BIP cells change faster than others, sometimes it's through deliberate, directed action, sometimes it's just the slow, inevitable process of time passing.
As far as the BIP being static, that is a possibility. However, if one is aware of the BIP, has taken into consideration how they got there, what influences it, etc., etc., and they choose to stay in their cell, then, at least, they've seen the options. Just because someone can see it, doesn't always mean they are going to want to leave it, change it, whatever. And nothing is permanent either. I think we all experience bouts of fluidity and staticness. The idea is to know where you are going, or not leaving from.
Yeah I think you got me on that one. BIP is fluid but it's someone/something else thats making it shift.
Difference between going and being led?
I seem to think that there's a difference between seeing the BIP and realizing you can reconstruct it.
Quote from: SillyCybin on February 13, 2007, 08:14:12 PM
Yeah I think you got me on that one. BIP is fluid but it's someone/something else thats making it shift.
Difference between going and being led?
yeah, i'd go for that.
the only way i can see the BIP being totally static is if someone reaches a state whereby they cease to have experience.
it kind of goes back to the dreaded crowley essay in the 'crowley BIP' thread. now, the thelemites have made too much of hadit/nuit as deities and all that, even though crowley's essay is in much simpler terms.
now, from other parts of the same essay (which i'll type up for sake of completion) is that when the monad capable of experience (a hadit) meets one of the possibilities available to it (nuit) it is a conjunction represented as 'love'.
however, when the hadit chooses the experience, it is 'love under will'.
or, if you prefer your terminology 'going or being led'.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 08:19:26 PM
now, from other parts of the same essay (which i'll type up for sake of completion) is that when the monad capable of experience (a hadit) meets one of the possibilities available to it (nuit) it is a conjunction represented as 'love'.
however, when the hadit chooses the experience, it is 'love under will'.
or, if you prefer your terminology 'going or being led'.
FTf'kin Win!
SSOOKN - making thelema easy...so you don't have to..*
*...buy & read expensive, complicated books
...deal with Crowley worshipping nimrods on the 'net
these brainstorm sessions are unbelievable
...is oddly aroused
Quote from: Mangrove on February 13, 2007, 08:59:39 PM
SSOOKN - making thelema easy...so you don't have to..*
*...buy & read expensive, complicated books
...deal with Crowley worshipping nimrods on the 'net
...and if they won't have ya the dark side is ready to welcome you into the fold
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/PVCOSR.jpg)
Wow. I really need to stay at this forum more. One day and already 6 pages of brilliant brainstorming has surged past me.
(sorry, nothing else to say. Actual productive comments to follow)
Quote from: The Littlest Ubermensch on February 14, 2007, 12:22:37 AM
Wow. I really need to stay at this forum more. One day and already 6 pages of brilliant brainstorming has surged past me.
(sorry, nothing else to say. Actual productive comments to follow)
i know what you mean
shit exploded today
im playing catch-up over here
Holy shit, when did this thread happen?
I need to skip class more often.
*mindgasm*
Just started today. 8)
LMNO started it. He thought his Golden Sphere would be somewhat innocuous but it just blew up, in a good way. I think this lends credence to getting the thoughts out for all to see and add upon, desconstruct, reconstruct, and so on.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 14, 2007, 02:14:10 AM
I think this lends credence to getting the thoughts out for all to see and add upon, desconstruct, reconstruct, and so on. 
... if only people were looking. Damn you apathy of the internet! :argh!:
Actually, I was referring to those who are already here. Meaning if someone has an idea they should get it out even if they think it is horseshit. We'll either agree, or we'll turn it into a new metaphor.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 14, 2007, 02:14:10 AMLMNO started it.  He thought his Golden Sphere would be somewhat innocuous but it just blew up, in a good way.  I think this lends credence to getting the thoughts out for all to see and add upon, desconstruct, reconstruct, and so on. 
i also think this reinforces the idea that we maybe need a new metaphor.
either stuff blew up because LMNO picked a "brighter metaphor" than BIP, as to shed more light on things
or maybe it blew up just because he picked a new metaphor that provided a new angle to look at things
or maybe it just blew up because it was time to blow up, everybody was there, having a few good ideas, and this thread got sort-of jacked into exploding shit
and all of the above
All of the above.
Hey, is there a way to print out these threads? Never mind, found it.
Pamphlet suggestion:  Variations on a theme:  one about BIP, one about Goldens Sphere, one about Interconnecting Cells, one about reality maps (old skool), etc.
I think this is a good idea, especially since it seems that we all have slightly or vastly different views and visualizations of the thing(s). It can also illustrate, through the variation, that we aren't into rigid dogma. We're more into exploding and expanding dogma, I think. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm working on a logic model of how I see things. Look for it in the next couple of days, or perhaps if work gets too crazy, by early next week.
Quote from: triple zero on February 13, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
when you say "put your palms on the sphere" i was imagining touching a bright ball (from the outside) only to realize later in the piece that it was infact describing a sphere from the inside. maybe that should be made a bit clearer from the start?
actually i think thats a great metaphore that should be stressed slightly more so that people would assume that as well, only to understand later that they are within the sphere instead of outside of it.
bumped for SJG cross-posting lulz.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=28226&page=1&pp=10 (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=28226&page=1&pp=10)
At least one person seems to be getting it.
Want to invite them over?
Welcome mat has been laid out.
How did I miss this?
:mittens: , LMNO.
Yeah, that was good stuff.